X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-04.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.103] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2076984 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 31 May 2007 12:23:28 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.103; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-04.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l4VGMfMS002977 for ; Thu, 31 May 2007 12:22:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000701c7a39f$f07e3900$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:22:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7A37E.691466E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7A37E.691466E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, Mike, you correct, you do not NEED the injector disable switches. = However, there are several reasons why you might want to consider = installing them. Should you ever have an injector malfunction - say their wire to the = EC2 grounds on your firewall- in that case, the injector (or both = assuming both of their wires grounded) will go to full open and could = possibly flood your engine - particularly if you are operating at lower = rpms. With a disable switch you could turn that pair off and fly on the = other. Even if an single injector stops functioning properly, the engine is = affected - depending on what the injector malfunction is - the engine = will likely not operating smoothly - so simply turn off the effected = injector pair and fly home - without a sputtering or bucking engine. You see your EGT start acting up - you could determine which set of = injectors (primary or secondary) is causing the problem and from there = which particular injector of the pair (rotor 1 or rotor 2 assuming you = have a separate EGT for each rotor) may be bad or acting up. I had a malfunction one time where the cold start function was forced = on (nothing to do with the switches) - with the cold start function = engage and both pairs of injector operating the engine had way too = much fuel (even when the mixture control was turned to minimum), but = switching off one pair made it possible to get home with no problem. You can also use them to shut your engine off immediately - even with = fuel in the lines, if you turn off the disable switches, the injectors = will immediately stop injecting fuel. =20 But, you are right, they are a point of failure,however, I would not = consider them a single point - unless you have the bad luck to have both = of them go out at the same time, because so long as one is working, you = can fly on one pair of injectors with no problem. =20 Again, the choice is up to you, but they do have some benefits. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michael LaFleur=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:35 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston Is there a reason you need an injector disable switch? Just looks like another failure point and an increase in risk. Mike LaFleur ----- Original Message ---- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:19:39 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston Dave, Congradulations on first start!!! It is a real rush to hear your baby = breathe its first breath. =20 As for the "Disable" switches, Tracy and I had a discussion on this = issue just a few weeks back. He assured me that I wasn't the only one = confused by the logic of the disable switches. He now recommends that = UP be ON (normal operation), and DOWN be DISABLE. My little pea brain = understands that.=20 Glad you figured it out so quickly. =20 Mark S. =20 =20 On 5/30/07, David Staten wrote:=20 We are prolly gonna go with UP for ON and DOWN for OFF. That seems = to be the simplest for us southerners :)=20 Yea.. it was the injector power switches. Dave Bob White wrote: >Congratulations Dave and Chris. Brings back memories of my first >engine start. Are the switches you had to turn over the injector=20 >disable switches? If that was my diagram, up is for _disable_ and = down >is for run! As long as they work the way you want that's the way = to >wire them. :) > >Bob W. > > >On Wed, 30 May 2007 22:10:06 -0500 >"Christopher Barber" wrote: > > > >>Oh, and for those playing along, we did install the check valve = properly . So far only a minor oil leak from a plug in the engine = Dave thinks he may have just snugged in by hand and forgot to tell me to = get back to and a small coolent leak on a temporay hose connection. = Really, really small in both cases....almost non issues. FWIW.=20 >> >>Thanks again for y'all's support and well wishes. >> >>All the best, >> >>Chris >>Houston, Texas >>Ellington Field (EFD) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Christopher Barber >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:54 PM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston=20 >> >> >> It actually started. We turned it off and it started again. = WAHOOOOO. But a mear wahoooo doesn't quite express the amazing feeling = and sense of accomplisment of first engine start of the 2nd gen, turbo = housing 13b.=20 >> >> David and I rebuilt it about 1.5 years ago. Dave did most the = teardown, cleaning, measureing tolerance etc and we both rebuilt it = following along Bruce T's video and the Haynes shop manual. Dave final = install on the CC engine mount and Tracy's PSRU. I ran the wires, = hoses...and the rest. A true joint effort.=20 >> >> We tried last night to no avail. Turns out when I wired the = injector switches based on a great diagram from the Flyrotary list, the = illustration stated "top" and I installed that end up with the swithes = being up when on. However, when I was checking my wires this pm I = noticed that power was coming through the switch when the switch was = down.....doh! So, I turned them over and rechecked the rest of my wires = and grounds.=20 >> >> In a damn optomistic gesture while in a pessimistic mood, my = hangar mate, Richard Sessions (who is restoring a VariEZ) and my S/O, = Jana and I pushed the tale of the Velocity out the hangar door (of = course it started sprinkling ) (Dave was still at work). We took = basic security procedures, ie showing Jana how to use the fire = estingusher. I turned on the switches (including the now correclty = mounted injector switches), turned on the primary fuel pump, hit the = starter button and DAMN, it fired.........SCARED THE HELL out of = us.......you should have seen my two Cairn Terriers (Winston and = Madison) head for the hills (well, Houston has no hills, but y'all get = the idea). We kinda looked at each other in a mixed shock and amazement = and checke that we didn't blow anything off. We actually mixed fuel, = air, compression and spark and got combustion.....who'ed of thunk it?=20 >> >> We waited for the portable battery charger/starter to bring the = battery back up and tried again. Switches up, Pumps on, press the = starter button......damn, it sputtered and started (after some = cranking). It started to rev really fast, or seeminly so, so I brought = the throttle to closed, which didn't stop it, so I cut the fuel pump and = it stopped. Go figure.=20 >> >> Well, we did this a few more times, never running it too long = since we do not yet have sensors on it yet. Also, Dave got off work and = came by to join the fun. Just the fact it actually ran was great. Now = that Tracy should be getting back into town, we should be able to order = the correct sensors to replace the ones that were missplaced along the = way.=20 >> >> Not quite sure what to work on now. Obviously we will want to = smooth it out and get it to start easily. It is currently running = better on B than A. I may have inavertanly changed someting on A while = messing with it during start sessions (may need to reset A...donno yet). = I think I will now try to start to clean up the wiring so as to make it = easier to manipulate the stuff in the cabin. Righ now the panel is = laying where the front seats should be. So this may be a good starting = point while waiting for sensors that will let me know I am not ruining = my new engine.=20 >> >> Y'all's support and words of wisdom, along with Tracy Crooks = great products it what helped make this a reality. Thanks for being = there. NOW THE REAL WORK (read that as fun) BEGINS. >> >> Dave will be posting a much more technical account soon....heck, = I bet we both rushed home so we could annouce it to the world. >> >> Thanks. >> >> All the best,=20 >> >> Chris >> Velocity N17010 >> w/ a Rotary 13b...that actually runs. >> >> > > > > -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7A37E.691466E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No, Mike, you correct, you do not NEED the = injector=20 disable switches.  However, there are several reasons why you might = want to=20 consider installing them.
 
Should you ever have an = injector  malfunction -=20 say their  wire to the EC2 grounds on your firewall- in that = case, the=20  injector (or both assuming both of their wires grounded) will go = to full=20 open and could possibly flood your engine - particularly if you are = operating at=20 lower rpms.  With a disable switch you could turn that pair off and = fly on=20 the other.
 
Even if an single injector stops functioning = properly, the=20 engine is affected - depending on what the injector malfunction is - the = engine=20 will likely not operating smoothly - so simply turn off the effected = injector=20 pair and fly home - without a sputtering or bucking engine.
 
You see your EGT start acting up - you could = determine=20 which set of injectors (primary or secondary) is causing the problem and = from=20 there  which particular injector of the pair (rotor 1 or rotor 2 = assuming=20 you have a separate EGT for each rotor) may be bad or acting = up.
 
I had a malfunction one time where the cold = start function=20 was forced  on (nothing to do with the switches)  - with the = cold=20 start function engage and  both pairs of = injector operating=20  the engine had way too much fuel (even when the mixture control = was turned=20 to minimum), but switching off one pair made it possible to get home = with no=20 problem.
 
You can also use them to shut your engine off = immediately=20 - even with fuel in the lines, if you turn off the disable switches, the = injectors will immediately stop injecting fuel.  =
 
But, you are right, they are a point of = failure,however, I=20 would not consider them a single point - unless you have the bad luck to = have=20 both of them go out at the same time, because so long as one is working, = you can=20 fly on one pair of injectors with no problem. 
 
Again, the choice is up to you, but they do have = some=20 benefits.
 
Ed
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Michael LaFleur
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 = 11:35=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is = ALIVE!!!=20 First Start in Houston

Is=20 there a reason you need an injector disable switch?

Just looks = like=20 another failure point and an increase in risk.

Mike = LaFleur

-----=20 Original Message ----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:19:39 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is = ALIVE!!!=20 First Start in Houston

Dave,
 
Congradulations on first start!!!  It is a real rush to hear = your=20 baby breathe its first breath. 
 
As for the "Disable" switches, Tracy and I had a discussion on = this issue=20 just a few weeks back.  He assured me that I wasn't the only one = confused=20 by the logic of the disable switches.  He now recommends that UP = be ON=20 (normal operation), and DOWN be DISABLE.  My little pea brain = understands=20 that.
 
Glad you figured it out so quickly.  
 
Mark S. 

 
On 5/30/07, David=20 Staten <Dastaten@earthlink.net> wrote:=20
We=20 are prolly gonna go with UP for ON and DOWN for OFF. That seems to = be
the=20 simplest for us southerners :)

Yea.. it was the injector = power=20 switches.

Dave

Bob White = wrote:

>Congratulations=20 Dave and Chris.  Brings back memories of my = first
>engine=20 start.  Are the switches you had to turn over the injector =
>disable switches?  If that was my diagram, up is = for=20 _disable_ and down
>is for run!  As long as they = work the=20 way you want that's the way to
>wire them. = :)
>
>Bob=20 W.
>
>
>On Wed, 30 May 2007 22:10:06=20 -0500
>"Christopher Barber" <CBarber@TexasAttorney.net>=20 wrote:
>
>
>
>>Oh, and for those playing = along,=20 we did install the check valve properly <g>.  So far = only a=20 minor oil leak from a plug in the engine Dave thinks he may have = just=20 snugged in by hand and forgot to tell me to get back to and a small = coolent=20 leak on a temporay hose connection.  Really, really small = in both=20 cases....almost non issues.  FWIW. =
>>
>>Thanks=20 again for y'all's support and well = wishes.
>>
>>All the=20 best,
>>
>>Chris
>>Houston,=20 Texas
>>Ellington Field=20 (EFD)
>>
>>  ----- Original Message=20 -----
>>  From: Christopher=20 Barber
>>  To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
>>  Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:54=20 PM
>>  Subject: [FlyRotary] It is ALIVE!!! First = Start in=20 Houston
>>
>>
>>  It actually=20 started.  We turned it off and it started=20 again.  WAHOOOOO.  But a mear wahoooo doesn't = quite=20 express the amazing feeling and sense of accomplisment of first = engine start=20 of the 2nd gen, turbo housing 13b. =
>>
>>  David=20 and I rebuilt it about 1.5 years ago.  Dave did most the = teardown,=20 cleaning, measureing tolerance etc and we both rebuilt it following = along=20 Bruce T's video and the Haynes shop manual.  Dave final = install on=20 the CC engine mount and Tracy's PSRU.  I ran the wires,=20 hoses...and the rest.  A true joint effort.=20
>>
>>  We tried last night to no=20 avail.  Turns out when I wired the injector switches based = on a=20 great diagram from the Flyrotary list, the illustration stated "top" = and I=20 installed that end up with the swithes being up when = on.  However,=20 when I was checking my wires this pm I noticed that power was coming = through=20 the switch when the switch was down.....doh!  So, I turned = them=20 over and rechecked the rest of my wires and grounds.=20
>>
>>  In a damn optomistic gesture = while in a=20 pessimistic mood, my hangar mate, Richard Sessions (who is restoring = a=20 VariEZ) and my S/O, Jana and I pushed the tale of the Velocity out = the=20 hangar door (of course it started sprinkling <g>) (Dave was = still at=20 work).  We took basic security procedures, ie showing Jana = how to=20 use the fire estingusher.  I turned on the switches = (including the=20 now correclty mounted injector switches), turned on the primary fuel = pump,=20 hit the starter button and DAMN, it fired.........SCARED THE HELL = out of=20 us.......you should have seen my two Cairn Terriers (Winston and = Madison)=20 head for the hills (well, Houston has no hills, but y'all get the=20 idea).  We kinda looked at each other in a mixed shock and = amazement and checke that we didn't blow anything off.  We = actually mixed fuel, air, compression and spark and got=20 combustion.....who'ed of thunk it? =
>>
>>  We=20 waited for the portable battery charger/starter to bring the battery = back up=20 and tried again. Switches up, Pumps on, press the starter = button......damn,=20 it  sputtered and started (after some = cranking).  It=20 started to rev really fast, or seeminly so, so I brought the = throttle to=20 closed, which didn't stop it, so I cut the fuel pump and it stopped. = Go=20 figure.
>>
>>  Well, we did this a few = more=20 times, never running it too long since we do not yet have sensors on = it yet.=20 Also, Dave got off work and came by to join the fun.  Just = the=20 fact it actually ran was great.  Now that Tracy should be = getting=20 back into town, we should be able to order the correct sensors to = replace=20 the ones that were missplaced along the way.=20
>>
>>  Not quite sure what to work on=20 now.  Obviously we will want to smooth it out and get it = to start=20 easily.  It is currently running better on B than = A.  I=20 may have inavertanly changed someting on A while messing with it = during=20 start sessions (may need to reset A...donno yet).  I think = I will=20 now try to start to clean up the wiring so as to make it easier to=20 manipulate the stuff in the cabin.  Righ now the panel is = laying=20 where the front seats should be.  So this may be a good = starting=20 point while waiting for sensors that will let me know I am not = ruining my=20 new engine.
>>
>>  Y'all's support and = words of=20 wisdom, along with Tracy Crooks great products it what helped make = this a=20 reality.  Thanks for being there.   NOW THE REAL = WORK=20 (read that as fun) BEGINS.
>>
>>  Dave = will be=20 posting a much more technical account soon....heck, I bet we both = rushed=20 home so we could annouce it to the=20 = world.
>>
>>  Thanks.
>>
>>=   All=20 the best,=20 =
>>
>>  Chris
>>  Velocity= =20 N17010
>>  w/ a Rotary 13b...that actually=20 = runs.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>


= --
Homepage:  =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=


= ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7A37E.691466E0--