X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from m12.lax.untd.com ([64.136.30.75] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with SMTP id 2075702 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 30 May 2007 20:16:12 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.30.75; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com Received: from m12.lax.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m12.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABDF6E6RACC3PQ2 for (sender ); Wed, 30 May 2007 17:15:11 -0700 (PDT) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkBBDWvafdleHpg+MRaUMpjKZDP/a/tcbnA== Received: (from alwick@juno.com) by m12.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id MN2ETKYX; Wed, 30 May 2007 17:14:51 PDT To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 17:11:48 -0700 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Evans Coolant Message-ID: <20070530.171406.108.6.alwick@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.49 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=--__JNP_000_43c9.5e07.2fc6 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8-6,19-20,22-26,28,30-34,36-37,45-46,53-54,57-59,74,78-79,83-84,88-106,108,110-111,112-32767 From: al p wick X-ContentStamp: 32:16:3749182186 X-MAIL-INFO:115e5edff797da1aab3a4adf9a4a632f3377bb4a5a43fb2ef75abb775af35a13be1737cf5eefdf7edf07f7af63eefaaf1a977317672ffe2bbf7b6f2f036f030e2b6317931e5b4f27ee3e8b6e1b2e579e1b9b1bb3ee6e476f576ebb02238f7a8ffbbadbab5e973a3a97db3acbdbfa5b8a03bb077e8afbcfa7e3379307875e8bbe873a33370b2aab9f138a0fd3cadede6b832ef7da97b7de9a4f8bf3f33bca4a5fc7ea6b5fc34e276e3e8b6e27 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m12.lax.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_43c9.5e07.2fc6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you were flowing the same volume as the OEM installations, then no, you would not need to flow more fluid. (You'd just see temperature increase). Looks like most of you flow substantially less coolant than OEM, so Evans would be a disaster. We had well proven example in a Subaru. This guy used 3/4" radiator tubing as I recall. Temperatures went to hell a number of months after first flight. Boil over. He switched to evans and it got substantially worse. Boil over. This is uncharacteristic. Ended up his unusually long coolant lines, combined with small diameter tubing, represented something like 80% reduction in coolant flow (compared to OEM). Since evans made it so much worse, it was obvious he had restricted coolant flow excessively. He changed to 1" coolant lines, all symptoms permanently disappeared. I believe he went back to traditional coolant. His radiators are in the wing. Doesn't matter though, as Evans is only advantage if your engine likes higher temps. Since it is less efficient. Not desirable for the rotary. So, all in all, I agree with your statement Ed. -al wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html On Wed, 30 May 2007 11:58:32 -0400 "Ed Anderson" writes: I have mentioned several times in discussions regarding the EVANS coolant that to really gain benefits from its use that the coolant flow would have to be increased to ensure the removal of adequate heat from the engine. The fact that the EVANS has a 300F+ boiling point may delay "boil over" but it does little to protect our rotary's because they are cooked long before that point is reached. In fact, the 250F boil over of the 50/50 mixture pretty much ensures that if you reach those temps you have probably cooked your engine. However, preventing Boil-over (as Al Wick has mentioned) is a worthwhile consideration. But, all that aside, my point was that give the lower specific heat and the fact that the rotary engine is more constrained temperature wise- means that to flow the same amount of heat out of your engine per unit time with Evans - you MUST increase the coolant flow rate. IF you do increase the flow rate with Evans to the point that the coolant temperatures are within the limits for the rotary then you stand a much better chance of benefiting from using EVANS. I happen to notice in reading material on the EVANS coolant, that the above point is also made by them: This is a direct quote from material on their web site. "THE EVANS SYSTEM Since the Evans coolant possesses different flow and thermal characteristics than normal EGW, some changes are in order. First, there is no need to use a pressurized cooling system, but an overflow bottle is necessary due to the expansion rate of the coolant. Evans markets 0- and 4-lb. caps for most radiators. The low-pressure cap is used to keep coolant loss in check on late-model engines. To totally optimize this system, a high-flow Evans water pump, thermostat and radiator should be installed. Working with data from the field, most late-model performance cars, unless approaching the 650-hp level, can reap substantial performance gains with just the installation of the Evans coolant and high-flow thermostat. Realizing the huge potential for power generation through the use of this coolant, Evans has designed many ancillary components to maximize the potential for late-model fuel-injected engines. Pulleys to increase stock water pump speeds, water pump application for TPl, 5.0s and Buick GNs along with radiators. " Note the reference to late-model performance cars is a reference to the fact that these newer engines are designed for and operate at higher coolant temperatures (more fuel efficiency) than previous engines (or our rotary engines). The point is as EVANS points out - there are some definite benefits to EVANs. However to gain the maximum benefit and given our rotary's lower temperature limits, I personally believe these changes are essential if you want a system that keeps you engine within safe limits. The changes Evan's mentions include high flow pumps, pulleys for faster flow, high flow thermostat and high flow radiators. This implies (to me at least) that if you are going to use Evans then you need to design your coolant system for its use from the git-go. My trouble-making 0.02 {:>) Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html -al wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ----__JNP_000_43c9.5e07.2fc6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you were flowing the same volume as the OEM installations, then no,= you=20 would not need to flow more fluid. (You'd just see temperature increase). = Looks=20 like most of you flow substantially less coolant than OEM, so Evans would = be a=20 disaster. We had well proven example in a Subaru. This guy used 3/4" = radiator=20 tubing as I recall. Temperatures went to hell a number of months after = first=20 flight. Boil over. He switched to evans and it got substantially worse. = Boil=20 over. This is uncharacteristic. Ended up his unusually long coolant lines,= =20 combined with small diameter tubing, represented something like 80% = reduction in=20 coolant flow (compared to OEM). Since evans made it so much worse, it was=20 obvious he had restricted coolant flow excessively. He changed to 1" = coolant=20 lines, all symptoms permanently disappeared. I believe he went back to=20 traditional coolant. His radiators are in the wing.
 
Doesn't matter though, as Evans is only advantage if your engine likes= =20 higher temps. Since it is less efficient. Not desirable for the rotary.
So, all in all, I agree with your statement Ed.
 

-al wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable = valve=20 lift and cam timing.
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ = hours=20 from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct= ,=20 Risk assessment info:
http:= //www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
 
On Wed, 30 May 2007 11:58:32 -0400 "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>= =20 writes:
I have mentioned several times in discussions = regarding=20 the EVANS coolant
that to really gain benefits from its use that = the=20 coolant flow would have to be increased to ensure the removal of adequate= heat=20 from the engine.  The fact that the EVANS has a 300F+ boiling point = may=20 delay "boil over" but it does little to protect our rotary's because they= are=20 cooked long before that point is reached.  In fact, the 250F boil = over of=20 the 50/50 mixture pretty much ensures that if you reach those temps you = have=20 probably cooked your engine.  However, preventing Boil-over (as Al = Wick=20 has mentioned) is a worthwhile consideration.
 
But, all that aside, my point was that give the = lower=20 specific heat and the fact that the rotary engine is more constrained=20 temperature wise-  means that to flow the same amount of heat = out of=20 your engine per unit time with Evans - you MUST increase the coolant flow= =20 rate.  IF you do increase the flow rate with Evans to the point that= the=20 coolant temperatures are within the limits for the rotary then you stand = a=20 much better chance of benefiting from using EVANS.
 
I happen to notice in reading material on the = EVANS=20 coolant, that the above point is also made by them:  This is a = direct=20 quote from material on their web site.
 
"THE EVANS SYSTEM

Since the Evans coolant possesses = different=20 flow and thermal characteristics than normal EGW, some changes are in=20 order. First, there is no need to use a pressurized = cooling=20 system, but an overflow bottle is necessary due to the expansion rate of = the=20 coolant. Evans markets 0- and 4-lb. caps for most radiators. The low-= pressure=20 cap is used to keep coolant loss in check on late-model engines. To=20 totally optimize this = system,=20 a high-flow Evans water pump, thermostat = and=20 radiator should be installed. Working with data from the= =20 field, most late-model performance=20 cars, unless approaching the 650-hp level, can reap substantial = performance=20 gains with just the installation of  the Evans coolant and high-flow thermostat.=20 Realizing the huge potential for power generation through the use of this= =20 coolant, Evans has designed many ancillary components to maximize the=20 potential for late-model fuel-injected=20 engines. Pulleys to = increase stock=20 water pump speeds, water pump application for TPl, 5.0s = and=20 Buick GNs along with radiators.  "

Note the reference to late-model performance cars= is a=20 reference to the fact  that these newer engines are designed for and= =20 operate at higher coolant temperatures (more fuel efficiency)  than= =20 previous engines (or our rotary engines).
 
The point is as EVANS points out - there are some= =20 definite benefits to EVANs.  However to gain the maximum benefit and= =20 given our rotary's lower temperature limits, I personally believe = these=20 changes  are essential if you want a system that keeps you engine = within=20 safe limits. 
 
The changes Evan's mentions  include high = flow=20 pumps, pulleys for faster flow, high flow thermostat and high flow=20 radiators.  This implies (to me at least) that if you are going to = use=20 Evans then you need to design your coolant system for its use from the=20 git-go.
 
My trouble-making 0.02 {:>)
 
Ed
 
 
 
 
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
= Matthews,=20 NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com<= BR>http:/= /members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda= /index.html
 

-al wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo = Subaru=20 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing.
Artificial intelligence = in=20 cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, = Subaru=20 install, Prop construct, Risk assessment=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
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