X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-02.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.101] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2073004 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 29 May 2007 12:57:24 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.101; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-02.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l4TGui6n007730 for ; Tue, 29 May 2007 12:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001101c7a212$5a9cb940$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling Recommendations Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 12:56:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C7A1F0.D33ECE00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C7A1F0.D33ECE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree, Dave. Putting a van or diverter near the inlet is dealing with higher velocity = air as you point out and is it is also in a location that makes the = angle of incident with the air flow critical. In fact, there is not any = way (other than making it in-flight adjustable) that you are not going = to get flow separation in some flight regime and more likely during = climb, just went you need all the cooling you can get. If you must = install the diverter at the entrance , then at a minimum give it a nice = rounded airfoil shape to help the air make the turn. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: The Wilenius Family=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:31 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling Recommendations I don't clain to know anything about this topic, but a quick search = found this. These guys look like they're dealing with a bit more = velocity and might be a good starting point. There is a reference to the = geometry they're using. You might want to make them slightly smaller = though :) = http://www.lboro.ac.uk/departments/tt/research/aerodynamics/windtunnel/va= nes.html One thing that is meantioned is that, where possible you'll want the = air to expand first before going through the vanes because the energy = loss is proportional to the square of the velocity. Get the velocity = down before making a sharp turn ... where possible. In your case that = would mean getting them as far back from the inlet as practical. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 12:16 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling Recommendations . Be aware that HVAC ducting is generally not dealing with air flows = that they have to slow down from 160 + MPH. While I do not pretend to = be HVAC knowledgeable - the environment and conditions are different - = that is not to say there may not be good ideas there - just a different = environment. =20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dennis Haverlah=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 11:58 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Cooling Recommendations Rotary Group, Thanks for the suggestions - questions etc.=20 Questions and--- maybe answers Oil pan clearance. The oil pan is a flat bottom Renesis stock pan . In the first = picture sent 5/27 it is about level with the white motor mount tube = under the engine. At the front it is about 2 inches from the radiator = surface. At the back it is about 8 inches above the radiator. The pan = only covers some of the water rad. and none of the oil rad. I get = better cooling on the water side so I don't believe it is a problem. =20 Duct shape. My James cowl inlet ended about 3/4 inch inside the opening. I = added foam and glass to make a smooth transition to the bottom and sides = of the cowl. Air entering near the top of the inlet either turns up = about 90 deg.within 2 inches of the inlet to the air filter or goes = straight back to the radiator. I don't like this arrangement but don't = know how much the turbulance contributes to poor cooling. My first = attempt to improve the top inlet flow made cooling worse so I am looking = at other areas now. Water hose may be restrictive. The hoses in the first 5/27 picture are oil lines to the oil = cooler. An-10 to the cooler and AN-8 back to the engine. The water coolant hoses are AN-20 not shown because they are = behind and on the other side of the engine.=20 Turnning Vane construction. I can easily construct a support that bolts to the bottom of the = cowl. This may be able to be installed through the inlet without taking = the bottom cowl off.=20 I have not found much information on flow turning vanes in either = the K&W Chapter 12 or Hoerner's Fluid -Dynamic Drag. Probably need to = look at HVAC duct design information. Dennis H. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C7A1F0.D33ECE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I agree, Dave.

Putting a van or diverter near the inlet is = dealing with=20 higher velocity air as you point out and is it is also in a location = that makes=20 the angle of incident with the air flow critical. In fact, there = is not=20 any way (other than making it in-flight adjustable) that you are not = going to=20 get flow separation in some flight regime and more likely during climb, = just=20 went you need all the cooling you can get. If you must install the = diverter at the entrance , then at a minimum give it a nice rounded = airfoil=20 shape to help the air make the turn.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 The=20 Wilenius Family
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft

Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 = 10:31=20 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Cooling=20 Recommendations

I=20 don't clain to know anything about this topic, but a quick search = found this.=20 These guys look like they're dealing with a bit more velocity and = might be a=20 good starting point. There is a reference to the geometry they're = using. You=20 might want to make them slightly smaller though :)

http://www.lboro.ac.uk/departments/tt/research/aerodyna= mics/windtunnel/vanes.html

One thing that is meantioned is that, where possible = you'll want=20 the air to expand first before going through the vanes because the = energy loss=20 is proportional to the square of the velocity. Get the velocity down = before=20 making a sharp turn ... where possible. In your case that would mean = getting=20 them as far back from the inlet as practical.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 12:16 PM
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling=20 Recommendations

<snip> .

Be aware that HVAC ducting is generally not = dealing=20 with air flows that they have to slow down from 160 + MPH. = While I do=20 not pretend to be HVAC knowledgeable - the environment and = conditions are=20 different - that is not to say there may not be good ideas there - = just a=20 different environment.

<snip>

Ed

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dennis Haverlah =
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 = 11:58=20 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] = Cooling=20 Recommendations

Rotary Group,
Thanks for the suggestions - = questions=20 etc.

Questions and--- maybe answers

Oil pan=20 clearance.
The oil pan is a flat bottom Renesis stock pan = . In=20 the first picture sent 5/27 it is about level with the white motor = mount=20 tube under the engine. At the front it is about 2 inches = from the=20 radiator surface. At the back it is about 8 inches above the = radiator. The pan only covers some of the water rad. and = none of the=20 oil rad. I get better cooling on the water side so I don't = believe=20 it is a problem.

Duct shape.
My James cowl inlet = ended=20 about 3/4 inch inside the opening. I added foam and glass to = make a=20 smooth transition to the bottom and sides of the cowl. Air = entering=20 near the top of the inlet either turns up about 90 = deg.within 2=20 inches of the inlet to the air filter or goes straight back to the = radiator. I don't like this arrangement but don't know how = much the=20 turbulance contributes to poor cooling. My first attempt to = improve=20 the top inlet flow made cooling worse so I am looking at other = areas=20 now.

Water hose may be restrictive.
The hoses in the = first 5/27=20 picture are oil lines to the oil cooler. An-10 to the cooler = and=20 AN-8 back to the engine.
The water coolant hoses are AN-20 not = shown=20 because they are behind and on the other side of the engine.=20

Turnning Vane construction.
I can easily construct a = support=20 that bolts to the bottom of the cowl. This may be able to be = installed through the inlet without taking the bottom cowl off. =
I have=20 not found much information on flow turning vanes in either the = K&W=20 Chapter 12 or Hoerner's Fluid -Dynamic Drag. Probably need = to look=20 at HVAC duct design information.

Dennis=20 H.

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