X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-01.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.100] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2071408 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 28 May 2007 12:16:50 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.100; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-01.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l4SGGBoa006651 for ; Mon, 28 May 2007 12:16:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001001c7a143$84ce93c0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Cooling Recommendations Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 12:16:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C7A121.FD731980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C7A121.FD731980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AN-20 are plenty for the radiator hoses, I use AN-16 and Tracy used two = 5/8" dia hoses (parallel). So that should not adversely affect your = cooling. Be aware that HVAC ducting is generally not dealing with air flows that = they have to slow down from 160 + MPH. While I do not pretend to be = HVAC knowledgeable - the environment and conditions are different - that = is not to say there may not be good ideas there - just a different = environment. You may find that taking the engine air inlet out of the cooling plenum = area (at least for the moment) and concentrating on getting the airflow = moving into your radiator might be worthwhile. You have more than = enough cubic inches like somewhere around 700 cubic inches. My two GM = cores have 9x10x3.5 @ 2 =3D 630 cubic inches, so I don't think its the = capacity of your radiator, its big enough so that even if your lose an = effective 70 cubic inches due to exit air being impeded, It should still = be big enough. As mentioned by others, improving the air exiting will pay benefits as = well. However, I found that in the real world when I tried to put an = exit duct to aid in air leaving the radiator, it has so many crooks and = turns that it actually ended up hurting cooling and was removed. Sometimes, there seems to be no recourse but to try several different = things. I got incremental improvement with the first 4 changes I made, = but it was not until the 5th change that I got a significant improvement = in cooling. It probably won't take you that many - but, it could. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dennis Haverlah=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 11:58 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Cooling Recommendations Rotary Group, Thanks for the suggestions - questions etc.=20 Questions and--- maybe answers Oil pan clearance. The oil pan is a flat bottom Renesis stock pan . In the first picture = sent 5/27 it is about level with the white motor mount tube under the = engine. At the front it is about 2 inches from the radiator surface. = At the back it is about 8 inches above the radiator. The pan only = covers some of the water rad. and none of the oil rad. I get better = cooling on the water side so I don't believe it is a problem. =20 Duct shape. My James cowl inlet ended about 3/4 inch inside the opening. I added = foam and glass to make a smooth transition to the bottom and sides of = the cowl. Air entering near the top of the inlet either turns up about = 90 deg.within 2 inches of the inlet to the air filter or goes straight = back to the radiator. I don't like this arrangement but don't know how = much the turbulance contributes to poor cooling. My first attempt to = improve the top inlet flow made cooling worse so I am looking at other = areas now. Water hose may be restrictive. The hoses in the first 5/27 picture are oil lines to the oil cooler. = An-10 to the cooler and AN-8 back to the engine. The water coolant hoses are AN-20 not shown because they are behind = and on the other side of the engine.=20 Turnning Vane construction. I can easily construct a support that bolts to the bottom of the cowl. = This may be able to be installed through the inlet without taking the = bottom cowl off.=20 I have not found much information on flow turning vanes in either the = K&W Chapter 12 or Hoerner's Fluid -Dynamic Drag. Probably need to look = at HVAC duct design information. Dennis H. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C7A121.FD731980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
AN-20 are plenty for the radiator hoses, I use = AN-16 and=20 Tracy used two 5/8" dia hoses (parallel).  So that should not = adversely=20 affect your cooling.
 
Be aware that HVAC ducting is generally not = dealing with=20 air flows that they have to slow down from 160 + MPH.  While I do = not=20 pretend to be HVAC knowledgeable - the environment and conditions are = different=20 - that is not to say there may not be good ideas there - just a = different=20 environment.
 
You may find that taking the engine air inlet = out of the=20 cooling plenum area (at least for the moment)  and concentrating on = getting=20 the airflow moving into your radiator might be worthwhile.  You = have more=20 than enough cubic inches like somewhere around 700 cubic inches.  = My two GM=20 cores have 9x10x3.5 @ 2  =3D 630 cubic inches, so I don't think its = the=20 capacity of your radiator, its big enough so that even if your lose an = effective=20 70 cubic inches due to exit air being impeded, It should still be big=20 enough.
 
As mentioned by others, improving the air = exiting will pay=20 benefits as well.  However, I found that in the real world =  when I=20 tried to put an exit duct to aid in air leaving  the radiator, = it has=20 so many crooks and turns that it actually ended up hurting cooling and = was=20 removed.
 
Sometimes, there seems to be no recourse but to = try=20 several different things.  I got incremental improvement with the = first 4=20 changes I made, but it was not until the 5th change that I got a = significant=20 improvement in cooling.  It probably won't take you that many - = but, it=20 could.
 
Ed
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dennis Haverlah
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 = 11:58 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Cooling=20 Recommendations

Rotary Group,
Thanks for the suggestions - questions = etc.=20

Questions and--- maybe answers

Oil pan = clearance.
The=20 oil pan is a flat bottom Renesis stock pan .  In the first = picture sent=20 5/27 it is about level with the white motor mount tube under the = engine. =20 At the front it is about 2 inches from the radiator surface.  At = the back=20 it is about 8 inches above the radiator.  The pan only covers = some of the=20 water rad. and none of the oil rad.  I get better cooling on the = water=20 side so I don't believe it is a problem. 

Duct = shape.
My James=20 cowl inlet ended about 3/4 inch inside the opening.  I added foam = and=20 glass to make a smooth transition to the bottom and sides of the = cowl. =20 Air entering near the top of the inlet either turns up  about 90=20 deg.within 2 inches of the inlet to the air filter or goes straight = back to=20 the radiator.  I don't like this arrangement but don't know how = much the=20 turbulance contributes to poor cooling.  My first attempt to = improve the=20 top inlet flow made cooling worse so I am looking at other areas=20 now.

Water hose may be restrictive.
The hoses in the first = 5/27=20 picture are oil lines to the oil cooler.  An-10 to the cooler and = AN-8=20 back to the engine.
The water coolant hoses are AN-20 not shown = because=20 they are behind and on the other side of the engine.

Turnning = Vane=20 construction.
I can easily construct a support that bolts to the = bottom of=20 the cowl.  This may be able to be installed through the inlet = without=20 taking the bottom cowl off.
I have not found much information on = flow=20 turning vanes in either the K&W Chapter 12 or Hoerner's Fluid = -Dynamic=20 Drag.  Probably need to look at HVAC duct design=20 information.

Dennis H.
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