X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 10 [X] Return-Path: Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.246] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2067440 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 25 May 2007 13:27:42 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.132.246; envelope-from=rotary.thjakits@gmail.com Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b2so227358ana for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 10:27:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=e59s0Y/E1M+YZZO7ohCKO9ndXMH1Cf39czeaHQ0y7w4UMY8BI87yuTCc82fyYDYLoyPGjVUu/JqLscBu/vW4tihG47/1P28mcYszUE6OamZqduAJ9EjJcDJ3T86LhOzDyaT3E0ewdE7roxkeeEC1aZ6cs6p6YxTNht/DREWV280= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=J+dcktclYlVnmlJJYVvVrbkdj6mw7T/FblDWKUKytQv+ECptzH2pA3btxjFgaO5IbyRSvP+RzDkXTpioH1uTBE/Mlzpf8cirbEFPmU4IdEEyfVZBa4qXIiiVgUXydooMHHjyMHMj2jgzrHzMFaTaksT4U56S55kYqHPAJeOKXpA= Received: by 10.100.189.17 with SMTP id m17mr2873812anf.1180114024560; Fri, 25 May 2007 10:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.96.15 with HTTP; Fri, 25 May 2007 10:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <63163d560705251027gc37091ahf8f7d615b2d6d9fa@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 12:27:04 -0500 From: "Thomas Jakits" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Marginal Cooling In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_196164_10031338.1180114024394" References: ------=_Part_196164_10031338.1180114024394 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jarrett, thanks again for the details! Very interesting! There is a RAM on the ramp down here sometimes.... Agree on the first 2 points for change - just never imagined that one would have to endure more than a hour on the taxiway :((, so your RAM fits my initial requirements just fine (An hour or more is about "forever" or infinite) I still would want to be able to climb at any speed at full power for 5 min and indefinite at Vx/Vy at max power - whether I get there is a different question, at this time I am still inthe wishful thinking phase. And the "thinking" changes nearly weekly as new systems show up on this list.... Is the RAM your own mount or are you flying it for someone else? TJ On 5/25/07, H & J Johnson wrote: > > *TJ, well I think the reality is, there will be a point where you have to > draw a line and say, if it will do this under this, this and this conditions > then I'm happy. The only reason I brought it up was because the way you'd > layed it out, my 414 wouldn't fit, nor would a very large percentage of > certified a/c. Yet I know my 414 to be an excellent aircraft, which in my > opinion, has never let me down due to some part of it having a poor design. > [well other than the water/oil seperator when flying in high humidity, > winter conditions but .. thats more to do w/ the engines system design than > the airframe, or its integration :-) ]* > > *Now I'll tell you why I had an oil temp problem. * > > *#1. I sat on the ground idling in Vegas [30dC outside] w/ a 27G37 tail > wind for 1 hour and 47 minutes. It took 1 hour and 20 minutes before the oil > temp got high, the last 27 minutes I was #1 for dept on Julite/hold Short on > 19R and could turn into the wind to cool it back down. The oil temp never > reached red line, and it may never have reached it, but it was high enough > that I wasn't comfortable w/ it.* > > *#2 I could climb at just over Vmca and it would overheat.. but I know of > NO REASON to do so. First of all, Vmca is like 79 knt's. My Vx and Vy are > both up around 120, at Vmca it's very possible that the a/c would hardly > climb at all, at gross weight, but I could still fly at that speed. It > would be a senseless act, but it still does fit your parameters.* > > ** > > *The 414 I fly is a Ram IV, it has all the airflow do-dad's you could > imagine [ I think RAM has come out w/ a couple new conversion's since this > one but.. they only have a few more minor slow speed handling upgrades] It > has cowl flap's as well as the top-of-the-cowl gill. The gill is behind the > engine and allow's for cooling air to get to the turbo's during cool down > [after shut down] and allow's the hot air out. I don't think it has a whole > lot of effect while in flight.. [it must have some.. but I don't know how > much.. and at this point it's irrelevent] well other than freaking my > passengers out when they see the glowing turbo's through there at night.. It > freaked me out for the first couple hundred hour's I flew it.. but after a > while you just get de-sensitised to it :-)* > > *There is nothing wrong w/ the cooling abilities of the airframe when > flying it properly. I get 120dF oil temp's during the summer at cruise and > climbout and 320dF cylinder head temp's as well. It is actually cooling too > well! We had to block off 1/3 of the oil coolers to get the oil temp's up to > where I was comfortable w/ them [over 150dF] and it had these in place when > I had the hot oil in Vegas.* > > *I guess the point I was trying to make is, there will always be a point > where something won't work the way you want it to, if you have to sit and > idle for just about 2hrs w/ a ~35knt tail wind in the desert, before the oil > overheats, I think you have a very good system. If you tried to improve on > it at this point, your just pushing yourself way down the efficentcy > ladder. There's a reason the old Jenny's of the 1920's were soooo slow.. > [amoungst other things] they had a 4ft x 4ft rad right out on the front of > the airframe about 4" behind the prop.. I think they cooled good though.. > :-)* > > *I would re-write your cooling requirements to be something like this:* > > *A) idle for more than 1hr on the ground w/ a outside air temp of up to > 35dC, with a maximun tail wind of 15knt's.* > > *B) Support 3 minutes of Run up into wind with zero ground speed at max > power.* > > *C) Support a max power climb for not less than 5 minutes at Vy or Vx [you > pick] w/ an outside Air temp of not greater than 35dC.* > > *Tempurature maximum's: Oil-225dF, coolant- 210dF [or whatever they might > be]* > > ** > > *Honestly I think under the exact same conditions in a car it would have > overheated as well [that day I was in Vegas] It was #@#^$ <%23@#%5E$> HOT > and the wind was like a furnace. * > > *Anyway, we all know that designing a cooling system is going to be a > compromise, I just don't think blanket spec's as open as what you'd listed > are going to get you the system you need. We already fly our planes to fit > parameters [ or in your case heli's :-)] we just have to continue in that > vein and write spec's of which we'd be happy w/ and then tweak the system > until we get there.* > > ** > > *Not poking fun or trying to be facetious, I just wanted to shed some real > world experiance "light" to the conversation.* > > *Best* > > *Jarrett* > > ** > ------=_Part_196164_10031338.1180114024394 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Jarrett,
 
thanks again for the details! Very interesting!
There is a RAM on the ramp down here sometimes....
 
Agree on the first 2 points for change - just never imagined that one would have to endure more than a hour on the taxiway :((, so your RAM fits my initial requirements just fine (An hour or more is about "forever" or infinite)
 
I still would want to be able to climb at any speed at full power for 5 min and indefinite at Vx/Vy at max power - whether I get there is a different question, at this time I am still inthe wishful thinking phase.
And the "thinking" changes nearly weekly as new systems show up on this list....
 
Is the RAM your own mount or are you flying it for someone else?
 
TJ

 
On 5/25/07, H & J Johnson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net> wrote:

TJ, well I think the reality is, there will be a point where you have to draw a line and say, if it will do this under this, this and this conditions then I'm happy. The only reason I brought it up was because the way you'd layed it out, my 414 wouldn't fit, nor would a very large percentage of certified a/c. Yet I know my 414 to be an excellent aircraft, which in my opinion, has never let me down due to some part of it having a poor design. [well other than the water/oil seperator when flying in high humidity, winter conditions but .. thats more to do w/ the engines system design than the airframe, or its integration :-) ]

Now I'll tell you why I had an oil temp problem.

#1. I sat on the ground idling in Vegas [30dC outside] w/ a 27G37 tail wind for 1 hour and 47 minutes. It took 1 hour and 20 minutes before the oil temp got high, the last 27 minutes I was #1 for dept on Julite/hold Short on 19R and could turn into the wind to cool it back down. The oil temp never reached red line, and it may never have reached it, but it was high enough that I wasn't comfortable w/ it.

#2 I could climb at just over Vmca and it would overheat.. but I know of NO REASON to do so. First of all, Vmca is like 79 knt's. My Vx and Vy are both up around 120, at Vmca it's very possible that the a/c would hardly climb at all, at gross weight, but I could still fly at that speed.  It would be a senseless act, but it still does fit your parameters.

 

The 414 I fly is a Ram IV, it has all the airflow do-dad's you could imagine [ I think RAM has come out w/ a couple new conversion's since this one but.. they only have a few more minor slow speed handling upgrades] It has cowl flap's as well as the top-of-the-cowl  gill. The gill is behind the engine and allow's for cooling air to get to the turbo's during cool down [after shut down] and allow's the hot air out. I don't think it has a whole lot of effect while in flight.. [it must have some.. but I don't know how much.. and at this point it's irrelevent] well other than freaking my passengers out when they see the glowing turbo's through there at night.. It freaked me out for the first couple hundred hour's I flew it.. but after a while you just get de-sensitised to it :-)

There is nothing wrong w/ the cooling abilities of the airframe when flying it properly. I get 120dF oil temp's during the summer at  cruise and climbout and 320dF cylinder head temp's as well. It is actually cooling too well! We had to block off 1/3 of the oil coolers to get the oil temp's up to where I was comfortable w/ them [over 150dF] and it had these in place when I had the hot oil in Vegas.

I guess the point I was trying to make is, there will always be a point where something won't work the way you want it to, if you have to sit and idle for just about 2hrs w/ a ~35knt tail wind in the desert, before the oil overheats, I think you have a very good system. If you tried to improve on it at this point, your just pushing yourself way down the efficentcy ladder.  There's a reason the old Jenny's of the 1920's were soooo slow.. [amoungst other things] they had a 4ft x 4ft rad right out on the front of the airframe about 4" behind the prop.. I think they cooled good though.. :-)

I would re-write your cooling requirements to be something like this:

A) idle for more than 1hr on the ground w/ a outside air temp of up to 35dC, with a maximun tail wind of 15knt's.

B) Support  3 minutes of Run up into wind with zero ground speed at max power.

C) Support a max power climb for not less than 5 minutes at Vy or Vx [you pick] w/ an outside Air temp of not greater than 35dC.

Tempurature maximum's: Oil-225dF, coolant- 210dF [or whatever they might be]

 

Honestly I think under the exact same conditions in a car it would have overheated as well [that day I was in Vegas] It was #@#^$ HOT and the wind was like a furnace.

Anyway, we all know that designing a cooling system is going to be a compromise, I just don't think blanket spec's as open as what you'd listed are going to get you the system you need. We already fly our planes to fit parameters [ or in your case heli's :-)] we just have to continue in that vein and write spec's of which we'd be happy w/ and then tweak the system until we get there.

 

Not poking fun or trying to be facetious, I just wanted to shed some real world experiance "light" to the conversation.

Best

Jarrett

 

------=_Part_196164_10031338.1180114024394--