X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 2 [X] Return-Path: Received: from m12.lax.untd.com ([64.136.30.75] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with SMTP id 2061908 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 May 2007 17:16:35 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.30.75; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com Received: from m12.lax.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m12.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABDFGZMJA6MXMFS for (sender ); Tue, 22 May 2007 14:15:20 -0700 (PDT) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkGDmVWZLpI7xfQj2GUFoCodFbGRZQSFUHQ== Received: (from alwick@juno.com) by m12.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id MNDHBMLR; Tue, 22 May 2007 14:14:31 PDT To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 14:13:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] marginal cooling Message-ID: <20070522.141339.4024.13.alwick@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.49 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=--__JNP_000_0ae6.3397.2a7c X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8-6,7,12-15,17,19-24,26,28,33,54,62,64-67,69,71-72,73-32767 From: al p wick X-ContentStamp: 20:10:1446904632 X-MAIL-INFO:2ffdfdb42da494993154d1b4d4d1f44449f961d159e9e5e02d5961f9597d59517538f1b0fd8db450b4a92dd0f4c16dd099a4c43870006545ed21dd6d45e43489857d148585cd345514 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m12.lax.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_0ae6.3397.2a7c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love it. Brilliantly simple. So, one of the big questions is what temp / time is risky to engine? We know if we operate the engine temps same as the cars, then we have the same basic risk as all those "flying" rx7's. Very low risk. So how does Perry control that? Just use the same gage. Don't let it go beyond it's normal range. I'd prefer numbers, but still, it's just brilliant. -al wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html On Mon, 21 May 2007 10:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Perry Mick writes: I'm not going to get into the argument about test methods to determine sufficient cooling. This is just a statement of what I have that works and works very well. See my recent article in Contact Magazine. What works for me was determined by the physical constraints of the Long-EZ firewall, and trial and error. Without looking at the archives, I don't even remember how this thread got started! Originally I had probably the smallest installed rad volume of anyone flying a rotary. I was running the stock porting '86 NA 146HP engine to about 5400RPM cruise, less in climb, probably only developing about 120HP. I have a 1 x 3 x 9 (27 cubic inches) cabin heater core plumbed to the engine heater port that bypasses the thermostat. My main rad during the low power period had overall dimensions of 2 x 13W x 17L, with 2" being the thickness of the tanks. The actual core was more like 1.25" thick. So the core itself was 13 x 13 x 1.25 or 211 cubic inches. I donot have a coolant temp readout in degrees. I have the actual instrument panel gauges from the 1986 RX-7 installed in my airplane. In the 2nd gen RX-7 the normal coolant temperature is about 1/4 to 1/3 up from the bottom of the "normal range". Because of the thermostat it never varies from this in the car unless there is something wrong, like a coolant leak and resulting loss of coolant. With my original small rad, I did see elevated temperatures on hot days during extended climbs, the gauge would indicate about 2/3 the way up in the "normal" range. It would not run away or go above this level. I've never bothered to find out what the upper and lower limits of the RX-7 gauge are in real Fahrenheit temperatures, but that data can probably be easily obtained from the maintenance manual, other sources, or testing the stock sensor/gauge against a thermometer. After converting to PSRU/prop December 2004, I could now rev the engine to 5400 RPM in climb and 6400 in cruise with my fixed pitch prop. Anticipating more heat with the additional power, before summer arrived I installed a new double-pass rad that doubled the core volume of the original. Two 2" tanks at the front, one 4" tank at the rear, and two 13 x 13 x 1.25 cores in between. Now, on the hottest days I can climb full power with no limit on duration, and the temperature indication never budges from the 1/3 point on the gauge. Just like in the car! So about 450 cubic inches of radiator core will be more than sufficient to cool your 146HP rotary. Scale accordingly for more installed power? -al wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ----__JNP_000_0ae6.3397.2a7c Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I love it. Brilliantly simple.
So, one of the big questions is what temp / time is risky to engine? = We=20 know if we operate the engine temps same as the cars, then we have the same= =20 basic risk as all those "flying" rx7's. Very low risk. So how does Perry = control=20 that? Just use the same gage. Don't let it go beyond it's normal range. I'd= =20 prefer numbers, but still, it's just brilliant.
 

-al wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable = valve=20 lift and cam timing.
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ = hours=20 from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct= ,=20 Risk assessment info:
http:= //www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
 
 
On Mon, 21 May 2007 10:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Perry Mick <pjmick@verizon.net> writes:
I'm not going to get into the argument about test methods to = determine=20 sufficient cooling.
This is just a statement of what I have that works= and=20 works very well. See my recent article in Contact Magazine. What works = for me=20 was determined by the physical constraints of the Long-EZ firewall, and = trial=20 and error. Without looking at the archives, I don't even remember how = this=20 thread got started!
Originally I had probably the smallest installed rad volume of = anyone=20 flying a rotary. I was running the stock porting '86 NA 146HP engine to = about=20 5400RPM cruise, less in climb, probably only developing about 120HP. I = have a=20 1 x 3 x 9 (27 cubic inches) cabin heater core plumbed to the engine = heater=20 port that bypasses the thermostat. My main rad during the low power = period had=20 overall dimensions of 2 x 13W x 17L, with 2" being the thickness of the = tanks.=20 The actual core was more like 1.25" thick. So the core itself was 13 x 13= x=20 1.25 or 211 cubic inches. I donot have a coolant temp readout in degrees.= I=20 have the actual instrument panel gauges from the 1986 RX-7 installed in = my=20 airplane. In the 2nd gen RX-7 the normal coolant temperature is about 1/4= to=20 1/3 up from the bottom of the "normal range". Because of the thermostat = it=20 never varies from this in the car unless there is something wrong, like a= =20 coolant leak and resulting loss of coolant. With my original small rad, I= did=20 see elevated temperatures on hot days during extended climbs, the gauge = would=20 indicate about 2/3 the way up in the "normal" range. It would not run = away or=20 go above this level. I've never bothered to find out what the upper and = lower=20 limits of the RX-7 gauge are in real Fahrenheit temperatures, but that = data=20 can probably be easily obtained from the maintenance manual, other = sources, or=20 testing the stock sensor/gauge against a thermometer.
After converting to PSRU/prop December 2004, I could now rev the = engine=20 to 5400 RPM in climb and 6400 in cruise with my fixed pitch prop. = Anticipating=20 more heat with the additional power, before summer arrived I installed a = new=20 double-pass rad that doubled the core volume of the original. Two 2" = tanks at=20 the front, one 4" tank at the rear, and two 13 x 13 x 1.25 cores in = between.=20 Now, on the hottest days I can climb full power with no limit on duration= , and=20 the temperature indication never budges from the 1/3 point on the gauge. = Just=20 like in the car!
So about 450 cubic inches of radiator core will be more than = sufficient=20 to cool your 146HP rotary. Scale accordingly for more installed power?
 

-al wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo = Subaru=20 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing.
Artificial intelligence = in=20 cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, = Subaru=20 install, Prop construct, Risk assessment=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
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