X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 50 [XX] (100%) RECEIVED: Received headers not consistent with Juno "FROM:" Return-Path: Received: from m12.lax.untd.com ([64.136.30.75] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.8) with SMTP id 2054317 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 19 May 2007 22:06:39 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.30.75; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com Received: from m12.lax.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m12.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABDE9MG3A58TUT2 for (sender ); Sat, 19 May 2007 19:05:13 -0700 (PDT) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkIDUewfYeftdy8qu7W0NO4K3snrRDmDxGg== Received: (from alwick@juno.com) by m12.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id MM6AQ8VT; Sat, 19 May 2007 19:04:56 PDT To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 19:04:03 -0700 Subject: Re: Fw: [FlyRotary] Re: Marginal Cooling contributes to Crash. Message-ID: <20070519.190403.3328.4.alwick@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.49 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=--__JNP_000_5293.3ff1.0b4c X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8-6,13-14,27-28,31-32,39-42,44,46-57,60-61,63-64,66-67,73-74,76-79,81-82,90-91,94-95,97-112,118-119,121-123,126,130-141,143,145-146,147-32767 From: al p wick X-ContentStamp: 38:19:2694685610 X-MAIL-INFO:396e6ed727ebe77ace1b47d77f470aab17c71e476afa8acb276a1ec76a0e6a8ea34b8b6b6eead70bd75f270f0acf7b0f7aeb024baa2a9ff75e2adad35edada7f3e9a5a37db9bbacf8fcf9fefcfbb7e3b7e5bbb5af7dba31eea0b9e1eee8e9eeeee778acbb7eeca6373aa738b5b73f36bfa6b47f38a5fee13074a6ac7eb0f8e57f3571b9f2717ce0b5fee7ffefeb3d77beb7767e78f2e8b6a7a032f4bfbaadadf9a4ab79afaeae39ba74e878aa7ef37ab0afefbbe779fbbcfbeb3db07dfaf8adfdf0fdb5e8a X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m12.lax.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_5293.3ff1.0b4c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes David, it was your incident I referred to. Appreciate the clarification. I was wrong to describe it as a crash. Although, as you acknowledge, with just slightly different circumstances it could been a crash. In fact, I pretend it was a fatality. This gets me past the tendency to rationalize incidents and tendency to become complacent. I've noticed our emotional needs cause us to not take action, so I compensate by pretending someone died. I have unusual way of looking at such incidents. I know we all have a tendency to focus on direct causes. Things like the cracked radiator, or perhaps the lack of antifreeze. I look for root causes and systemic failures. The "other" causes. If I notice those and take action on them, then I end up with solutions that also reduce risk of other potential failures. If we use your incident as example, it would serve no purpose for me (or others) to rush out to the airport and look for radiator cracks. There is some value to checking my antifreeze ratio, to make sure I too don't have a lean condition. However, I place significance on making sure I recognize marginal cooling as a cause. There's nothing personal in the statement. No offense intended. If you were able to fly at full power with good temps, you never would have been motivated to use 100% water. It's that simple. With good intentions, Ed recommended the new guy NOT take action to reduce temps during climb. I disagree. MY INTENT is to save a life. So I encourage him to not settle. Ever since Paul died, and I knew he was taking risks, and I didn't say anything....... I recognized my not saying anything is just being a chicken. I'm an expert at preventing failures. Companies I managed outperformed all of the competition. I have an obligation of every once in a while to offer a suggestion. I expect some grief for having a different viewpoint....although have to admit I'm appalled at this eagerness to interpret suggestions in negative manner. -al wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 21:27:39 -0700 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Marginal Cooling contributes to Crash. Message-ID: Perry, I think you are right. Al, you must be thinking about my engine out incident. No crash, no damage. It was a gentle touch down on a freeway. But that is beside the point.. could have been a crash. You also have your facts wrong about location. Like Perry said, it was indeed California in winter. Marginal cooling as an underlying cause is closer to the truth, but miss leading at best. Did I have marginal cooling? Well, I could outrun any 160h.p. side-by-side RV that ever flew against, even on the hottest day. Could outrun the 180 hp RV's on cool days. I could out climb and outrun any plane that I could afford to rent, even when heat soaked on a 110 deg day with a bubble in my cooling system.. is that marginal? Maybe, because I wanted more.... by the way, according to your definition here is a short list of other planes that have marginal cooling: Every WWII fighter from every country. Every Cessna and Piper that I have ever flown. My marginal cooling was by no real means the cause of the incident, but a series of not-so-smart decisions by the owner/pilot. In order to impress my friends, I found that pure water would allow the use of more power. I didn't put in enough antifreeze when I went to the mountains for the weekend. The radiator froze and developed a small crack. I switched to Evans not to compensate for lack of cooling, but to allow me to fly home with an unpressurized cooling system (minimizing any continued leak). However, a 7psi cap was not enough pressure, even using Evans, and all the coolant came out past the radiator cap. Stupid Stupid cold and tired. So maybe if I had unlimited cooling I might not have ever had an issue. Then again, given my quest for power ... I might then have chosen to convert to NitroMethane and just blown myself up... :-) In other words, in my case, you really have to blame "must impress my friends..." more than the cooling system itself. -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY N4VY.RotaryRoster.net www.RotaryRoster.net On 5/15/07, Perry Mick wrote: al p wick wrote: If you guys just measure your temps as I described earlier, then all of the successes could be copied. Because, heh, it's not like anybody has ever said anything about their temps on their first flight. Everybody is SO secretive with that information. You can't get anyone to tell you anything about their radiator sizes, or inlet sizes, and I've never heard anyone mention NACA ducts or external diffusion. Just a bunch of guys talking all day with no one EVER mentioning a number. Ernest (wishing SOMEONE would tell me how well their cooling system is working) My cooling systems works so well, that the coolant temperature never budges from thermostat temperature even on very hot days and long climbs. I'm trying to figure out what accident Al is talking about. I don't remember any accident in Wyoming, and a search of the archives turned up nothing. Just did a search for "Evans". Al must be talking about Dave Leonard - that was in California, in winter time! Perry -al wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ----__JNP_000_5293.3ff1.0b4c Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes David, it was your incident I referred to. Appreciate the=20 clarification. I was wrong to describe it as a crash. Although, as you=20 acknowledge, with just slightly different circumstances it could been a = crash.=20 In fact, I pretend it was a fatality. This gets me past the tendency to=20 rationalize incidents and tendency to become complacent. I've noticed = our=20 emotional needs cause us to not take action, so I compensate by pretending= =20 someone died.
 
I have unusual way of looking at such incidents. I know we all have a= =20 tendency to focus on direct causes. Things like the cracked radiator, or = perhaps=20 the lack of antifreeze. I look for root causes and systemic failures. = The=20 "other" causes. If I notice those and take action on them, then I end up = with=20 solutions that also reduce risk of other potential failures. If we use your= =20 incident as example, it would serve no purpose for me (or others) to rush = out to=20 the airport and look for radiator cracks. There is some value to = checking=20 my antifreeze ratio, to make sure I too don't have a lean condition. = However, I=20 place significance on making sure I recognize marginal cooling as a cause.= =20 There's nothing personal in the statement. No offense intended. If you were= able=20 to fly at full power with good temps, you never would have been motivated = to use=20 100% water. It's that simple.
 
With good intentions, Ed recommended the new guy NOT take action to = reduce=20 temps during climb. I disagree. MY INTENT is to save a life. So I = encourage=20 him to not settle. 
 
Ever since Paul died, and I knew he was taking risks, and I didn'= t say=20 anything....... I recognized my not saying anything is just being a=20 chicken.  I'm an expert at preventing failures. Companies I = managed=20 outperformed all of the competition. I have an obligation of every once in = a=20 while to offer a suggestion.  I expect some grief for having a=20 different viewpoint....although have to admit I'm appalled at this = eagerness to=20 interpret suggestions in negative manner.
 

-al wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable = valve=20 lift and cam timing.
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ = hours=20 from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct= ,=20 Risk assessment info:
http:= //www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
 
 
 
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 21:27:39 -0700
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Marginal Cooling contributes to=20 Crash.
Message-ID: <list-2046911@logan.com>
 
Perry, I think you are right.  Al, you must be thinking about = my=20 engine out incident.  No crash, no damage. It was a gentle = touch=20 down on a freeway.  But that is beside the point..  could have = been=20 a crash.
 
You also have your facts wrong about location.  Like Perry=20 said, it was indeed California in winter.
 
Marginal cooling as an underlying cause is closer to the truth, but = miss=20 leading at best.
 
Did I have marginal cooling?  Well, I could outrun any 160h.p.= =20 side-by-side RV that ever flew against, even on the hottest day.  = Could=20 outrun the 180 hp RV's on cool days.  I could out climb and outrun = any=20 plane that I could afford to rent, even when heat soaked on a 110 deg day= with=20 a bubble in my cooling system..  is that marginal?  Maybe, = because I=20 wanted more....
 
by the way, according to your definition here is a short list of = other=20 planes that have marginal cooling:
Every WWII fighter from every country.
Every Cessna and Piper that I have ever flown.
 
My marginal cooling was by no real means the cause of the = incident,=20 but a series of not-so-smart decisions by the owner/pilot. 
 
In order to impress my friends, I found that pure water would allow = the=20 use of more power.  I didn't put in enough antifreeze when I went to= the=20 mountains for the weekend.  The radiator froze and developed a = small=20 crack.  I switched to Evans not to compensate for lack of cooling, = but to=20 allow me to fly home with an unpressurized cooling system (minimizing any= =20 continued leak).  However, a 7psi cap was not enough pressure, even = using=20 Evans, and all the coolant came out past the radiator cap.  Stupid = Stupid=20 cold and tired.
 
So maybe if I had unlimited cooling I might not have ever had an=20 issue.  Then again, given my quest for power ...  I might then= =20 have chosen to convert to NitroMethane and just blown= =20 myself up...   :-)
 
In other words, in my case, you really have to blame "must impress = my=20 friends..." more than the cooling system itself.
 
--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
www.RotaryRoster.net
 <= /DIV>
On 5/15/07, = Perry=20 Mick <pjmick@verizon.net= >=20 wrote:=20
al p wick= wrote:
If you guys just measure your temps as I described = earlier,=20 then all of
the successes could be copied.=20   

Because, heh, it's not like = anybody has=20 ever said anything about their temps on their first flight. Everybody = is SO=20 secretive with that information. You can't get anyone to tell you = anything=20 about their radiator sizes, or inlet sizes, and I've never heard anyone= =20 mention NACA ducts or external diffusion. Just a bunch of guys talking = all=20 day with no one EVER mentioning a number.

Ernest (wishing = SOMEONE=20 would tell me how well their cooling system is working)


My=20 cooling systems works so well, that the coolant temperature never = budges=20 from thermostat temperature even on very hot days and long climbs.
= I'm=20 trying to figure out what accident Al is talking about. I don't = remember any=20 accident in Wyoming, and a search of the archives turned up nothing. = Just=20 did a search for "Evans". Al must be talking about Dave Leonard - that = was=20 in California, in winter time!=20

Perry



<= BR>
 

-al wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo = Subaru=20 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing.
Artificial intelligence = in=20 cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, = Subaru=20 install, Prop construct, Risk assessment=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
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