Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #36091
From: Joe Ewen <jewen@comporium.net>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The truth??? / Injector flow rate mystery solved
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:37:44 -0500
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Message
Ed,
It has been my experience, in industrial control, environment that there are several sources of latency (delay time) on and off delay time of the IO circuitry, clock speed of the IO controller, on and off delay times for the controlled device, mechanical delays etc.  When a machine operator presses a control button, expecting a action to occur such as starting a motor conveyor, a stacked latency of 5 or even 100 mS is not perceivable.  But trying to put a patterned glue line on a web moving 5 to 10 feet per second, requires accounting for the IO delay time, pneumatic solenoid delay, air line charging time, glue head mechanical delay, glue reaction (like a dripping faucet, the glue will form a droplet before becoming a stream.) 
 
When I have been up against applications like the latter, I have found a curve fitting program that has worked very well.  In the example cited, I have run a rudimentary control algorithm and collected the resultant data.  Dump the data into the curve fitting program, and the program will crunch the data and make recommendations for the closest formula as well as the required formula constants.  This has worked very well for some difficult applications.
 
IMO a great way to work your fuel flow situation might be to install a flow sensor.  Run your engine at various RPMs recording EC2 indications and actual fuel flow sensor readings.  Dump the data into a curve fitting program and viola.  One of the best fitting  programs I have found is called XLFit (VBA add on to Excel).  The program cost is $725, but it has a 30 day fully functioning trial. 
 
If you would like to try an approach such as this, I could provide IO for capturing fuel flow sensor data, curve fitting program, as well as coming up to give you a hand (since I am less than an hour's drive from your location.) 
 
Joe  (If I stop rambling, I might actually be able to turn on the battery masters and fire up the CPU this week end.)
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 8:30 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The truth??? / Injector flow rate mystery solved

Ah, the old induced current caused  by the collapsing magnetic field of the injector has no place to go (quickly at least) due to the diode.  That would indeed tend to prolong the closing - hummm up to 5 msec - now the duration -  that is surprising. 
 
That's at least part (if not all) of the reason why I always had to add a "fudge factor" increase over the number I calculated for the specified flow rate.  The injectors were staying on a bit longer and therefore flowing more fuel than the specified flow rate would indicate.  OK! so now I know why I had to have a fudge factor - I feel better and will finally be able to sleep {:>)
 
Thanks for the additional information, Tracy.  It will keep the rumors to a minimum {:>)
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 5:20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The truth??? / Injector flow rate mystery solved

Still refining the exact numbers but here is the basic cause.
 
The diode clamp on the injector drivers (in EC2) serves 3 purposes.  It limits the inductive flyback voltage to protect the driver transistor.  It recovers some of the energy used to open the injector thus reducing the current consumption of the system.  It eliminates arcing at the A/B injector switching relay that can cause noise problems with the processor chips.
 
Unknown to me until recently, it also significantly increases the closing time of the injector after the driver pulse ends.  I thought the delay would be negligible.  The actual delay depends on several factors but may be as much as 5 ms (!)  Ed will know what a big deal this is.  The factors that go into this and how much it is magnified by the diode clamp is still under investigation.
 
The good news is that there is a very simple fix.  (Note, Do NOT go out and remove the diode clamps! That isn't the fix!
 
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:13 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The truth??? / Injector flow rate mystery solved

I certainly don't know, Rusty.  Like I said the only thing that Tracy and I could conclude was that Mazda was under-rating their  injectors - I wondered whether it might have something to do with the way an engine is taxed in Japan.
 
In any case, Tracy is clearly ignoring our pleas for more information - poor guy is undoubtedly working furiously getting orders completed before Sun & Fun.  But, he really shouldn't tease like that {:>)
 
Yes, I understand what you mean about measured flow rates - I suspect there is something subtle about this matter.  Perhaps the current profile used to open the injectors plays some role in this as Tracy indicated he was working on a Fix.  Perhaps a two stage or progressive flow rate profile - opens and provides normal flow for typical automobile usage but, when wide open (like ours are at cruise) perhaps the flow rate is more.  Who knows - Tracy Crook that's who.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 12:19 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The truth??? / Injector flow rate mystery solved

Tracy and I have been discussing this injector flow rate anomaly for years -  
 
For some reason, I was certain that the Mazda injectors flowed more than they were rated for, but after sifting through some old logs, that's not true for all Mazda injectors.   I sent 4 slightly used 550's to RC Engineering, and they tested them at 547, 549, 551, and 551.  If that ain't 550, I don't know what is :-)  
 
I guess I'm baffled now.  Does Mazda operate them at 5 volts or something, rather than 12V?  That would slow down the response time.   
 
 
Hey the HKS is a good little engine in my opinion - not as good as a light weight rotary (which we don't have yet - Richard! get a move on {:>)), but it'll get you  flying again. 
 
Thanks for the comments.  It can't hurt much to try it, because I've already got people who want to buy it if it doesn't work out.  Still, it's as much trouble to install as the rotary, so it really comes down to a weight issue, and perhaps whether I'll ever get my redrive from Autoflight...  
 
Rusty
 
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