X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 1 [X] Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-01.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.100] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.4) with ESMTP id 1711153 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 24 Dec 2006 08:27:53 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.100; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-100-190.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.100.190]) by ms-smtp-01.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id kBODPt0h021556 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 2006 08:25:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000701c7275f$0fe15330$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 08:26:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C72735.26B7D400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C72735.26B7D400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, Joe. As you probably recall, I lost an apex seal (two actually) on = one rotor back a couple of years ago. My conclusion was that the = problem resulted from a combination of using used rotors in which the = apex seal slots were wallowed out taking them from a vertical slot to a = "V" shape. When I took the engine apart and measured that parameter = (seal slot width), I found it was considerably out side the specs. I = was also using Hurley seals from Atkins. =20 I surmised that the combination of the "V" slot which lost its ability = to support the side of the seal and the softer Hurley seals lead to one = fracturing and that piece taking out the following seal. So I now know = that the wear specification for that apex seal slot is something to pay = attention to. =20 I went to new rotors and now use Tracy Crooks apex seals (much, much = stronger than stock or Hurley). Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe Hull=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 12:00 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft Thanx Ed. I'll double check but pretty sure I'm at 35.=20 =20 Have a very, very Merry Christmas too! (hoping the spouse and others = gift you with many aviation toys!) =20 Joe =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:31 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft =20 Joe, Sorry to hear about your problem but glad to hear you brought her = back safely. Does certainly appear you have a bad apex seal. You might = want to check your ignition timing. I once mistakenly (of course - who = would to it intentionally {:>)) sat my static timing to 45 deg rather = than 35. I noticed while flying that If I opened up the throttle wide = open the note of the exhaust changed to a staccato popping. Well did = not fortunately lose an apex seal but I found the center electrode = ceramic cone was missing for two of the 4 plugs and cracked on the other = two. Just lucky they didn't take out the apex seal. So you might check = that timing just to be certain. =20 "Merry Christmas"? =20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe Hull=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:15 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Dead Rotor at 3000ft =20 The weather today in the Seattle area was marginal for flying - but = a nice hole opened around my home airport (KAWO) and I was there = tinkering with the plane anyway (re-torqueing the prop)- so up I went. I = did 4 touch and goes just for a wee bit of practice and then departed = the pattern toward a bigger hole that would be legal to climb through = VFR. I flew about 30 miles northwest of the airport out to the edge of = the Puget Sound and enjoyed just being in the air. Power setting was = about 4400RPM and I was loping along at a lazy 135kts. I turned around = and headed back for Arlington and decided to ramp up the power to = ramming speed - errr I mean cruising speed. In a few minutes I was = cruising along at 170kts at about 5500RPM. Then all of a sudden BAM - = the engine stumbled and RPM's dropped to 2300RPM. I immediately = throttled back and switched tanks while turning toward the airport. = Altitude was 3200FT (about 3000AGL) and I was maybe 7 miles from the = airport. The engine was running real rough and wouldn't give me more = than 2300RPM. Even with that little bit of power I ended up entering the = 45 to the pattern at about 800 above pattern altitude. It was pretty = slow at the airport so I easily made a normal landing and was able to = taxi back to the hanger under power.=20 =20 At the hangar I double checked everything I could from the cockpit - = fuel pressure good at 36PSI, oil pressure good at 55PSI at 2300 RPM, = MicroTech ECM showed "OK" for the size major areas it monitors. So, I = shut it down and pulled the cowl. I pulled the prop through a number of = times and it seemed that there was a couple places where I should have = been hearing a "pop" in the exhaust but didn't. I also notice that there = is a nice ding in the prop that is about an inch long - that wasn't = there when I left (remember I'm a pusher). =20 I got the engine compression gage and proceeded to take the spark = plug out of the front rotor - top - BR9EQ-14. Hmmm - I don't remember = there being a casing around the electrode - and why is that casing = sliding? Apparently the casing around the electrode broke somewhere = inside the sparkplug and into two halves long ways down the electrode. = Each half slides freely up and down the electrode and even sticks out a = little from the end. =20 I put the compression gage on and it looks like I get 30-30-70 when = I turn the engine over. I tried this several times and there is = definitely a couple of places where it only goes to 30. So I double = check the location of that ding in the prop - hmmm it's exactly even = with the bottom of the exhaust - right about where an apex seal would = come out. =20 I put two new BR9EQ-14's in both rotors and did a quick run - = 2300RPM rough is the best I could get. =20 Some time this week I'll go up and yank the exhaust so I can see the = apex seals - my guess is I'm missing at least one. Bummer.=20 =20 Joe Hull (getting tired of little surprises in the air). Redmond/Seattle WA, Cozy-Mazda Rotary 71hrs =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C72735.26B7D400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok, Joe. As you probably recall, I lost an apex = seal (two=20 actually) on one rotor back a couple of years ago.  My conclusion = was that=20 the problem resulted from a combination of using used rotors in which = the apex=20 seal slots were wallowed out taking them from a vertical slot to a "V"=20 shape.  When I took the engine apart and measured that parameter = (seal slot=20 width), I found it was considerably out side the specs.  I was also = using=20 Hurley seals from Atkins. 
 
I surmised that the combination of the "V" slot = which lost=20 its ability to support the side of the seal and the softer Hurley seals = lead to=20 one fracturing and that piece taking out the following seal.   = So I=20 now know that the wear specification for that apex seal slot is = something to pay=20 attention to. 
 
I went to new rotors and now use Tracy Crooks = apex seals=20 (much, much stronger than stock or Hurley).
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Joe Hull=20
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 = 12:00=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dead = Rotor at=20 3000ft

Thanx Ed. = I=92ll double=20 check but pretty sure I=92m at 35.

 

Have a = very, very=20 Merry Christmas too! (hoping the spouse and others gift you with many = aviation=20 toys!)

 

Joe

 

 

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed = Anderson
Sent: Saturday, December 23, = 2006 8:31=20 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Dead Rotor at 3000ft

 

Joe, Sorry to hear about = your=20 problem but glad to hear you brought her back safely.  Does = certainly=20 appear you have a bad apex seal.  You might want to check your = ignition=20 timing.  I once mistakenly (of course - who would to it = intentionally=20 {:>)) sat my static timing to 45 deg rather than 35.  I = noticed while=20 flying that If I opened up the throttle wide open the note of the = exhaust=20 changed to a staccato popping.  Well did not fortunately lose an = apex=20 seal but I found the center electrode ceramic cone was missing for two = of the=20 4 plugs and cracked on the other two.  Just lucky they didn't = take out=20 the apex seal.  So you might check that timing just to be=20 certain.

 

"Merry=20 Christmas"?

 

Ed

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: Joe Hull=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:15 = PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Dead Rotor at 3000ft

 

The weather today in = the Seattle=20 area was marginal for flying =96 but a nice hole opened around my = home airport=20 (KAWO) and I was there tinkering with the plane anyway (re-torqueing = the=20 prop)=96 so up I went. I did 4 touch and goes just for a wee bit of = practice=20 and then departed the pattern toward a bigger hole that would be = legal to=20 climb through VFR. I flew about 30 miles northwest of the airport = out to the=20 edge of the Puget Sound and = enjoyed just=20 being in the air. Power setting was about 4400RPM and I was loping = along at=20 a lazy 135kts.  I turned around and headed back for Arlington = and decided=20 to ramp up the power to ramming speed =96 errr I mean cruising = speed. In a few=20 minutes I was cruising along at 170kts at about 5500RPM. Then all of = a=20 sudden BAM =96 the engine stumbled and RPM=92s dropped to = 2300RPM.  I=20 immediately throttled back and switched tanks while turning toward = the=20 airport. Altitude was 3200FT (about 3000AGL) and I was maybe 7 miles = from=20 the airport. The engine was running real rough and wouldn=92t give = me more=20 than 2300RPM. Even with that little bit of power I ended up entering = the 45=20 to the pattern at about 800 above pattern altitude. It was pretty = slow at=20 the airport so I easily made a normal landing and was able to taxi = back to=20 the hanger under power.

 

At the hangar I double = checked=20 everything I could from the cockpit =96 fuel pressure good at 36PSI, = oil=20 pressure good at 55PSI at 2300 RPM, MicroTech ECM showed =93OK=94 = for the size=20 major areas it monitors. So, I shut it down and pulled the cowl. I = pulled=20 the prop through a number of times and it seemed that there was a = couple=20 places where I should have been hearing a =93pop=94 in the exhaust = but didn=92t. I=20 also notice that there is a nice ding in the prop that is about an = inch long=20 =96 that wasn=92t there when I left (remember I=92m a=20 pusher).

 

I got the engine = compression=20 gage and proceeded to take the spark plug out of the front rotor =96 = top =96=20 BR9EQ-14. Hmmm =96 I don=92t remember there being a casing around = the electrode=20 =96 and why is that casing sliding?  Apparently the casing = around the=20 electrode broke somewhere inside the sparkplug and into two halves = long ways=20 down the electrode. Each half slides freely up and down the = electrode and=20 even sticks out a little from the end.

 

I put the compression = gage on=20 and it looks like I get 30-30-70 when I turn the engine over. I = tried this=20 several times and there is definitely a couple of places where it = only goes=20 to 30. So I double check the location of that ding in the prop =96 = hmmm it=92s=20 exactly even with the bottom of the exhaust =96 right about where an = apex seal=20 would come out.

 

I put two new = BR9EQ-14=92s in both=20 rotors and did a quick run =96 2300RPM rough is the best I could=20 get.

 

Some time this week = I=92ll go up=20 and yank the exhaust so I can see the apex seals =96 my guess is = I=92m missing=20 at least one. Bummer.

 

Joe Hull (getting = tired of=20 little surprises in the air).

Redmond/Seattle WA, = Cozy-Mazda=20 Rotary 71hrs

 

--
Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:  =20 = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/

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