X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 10 [X] Return-Path: Received: from bay0-omc3-s6.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.206] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.3) with ESMTP id 1672212 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:40:51 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.246.206; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.250.80]) by bay0-omc3-s6.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:40:01 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:40:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 4.171.174.2 by BAY115-DAV8.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:39:57 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.171.174.2] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Great Flight Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:39:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0032_01C71EDD.B1AE14D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.50.0034.2000 Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:39:52 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Dec 2006 22:40:01.0247 (UTC) FILETIME=[9FF8E6F0:01C71F07] Return-Path: lors01@msn.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C71EDD.B1AE14D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve (Brooks), everything Steve (Boese) said is correct & relevant but = OTOH, I don't think you will ever get a truly smooth idle with your = intake manifold since the primary injectors are so far away from the = intake port. A common misconception is that the long time & distance will give the = fuel a better chance to vaporize. The opposite is true. The time & = distance give the fuel a chance to condense on the cold walls of the = runners. There are other factors that make this a non-optimum setup for = idle conditions but that's a long story. Tracy (agonizing over autopilot choice) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: sboese=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 11:15 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Great Flight Steve, As I have been accumulating time on my installation, I have been = trying to improve on my tuning of the fuel system also. The system = could never be tuned to be stable at any mixture setting except quite = rich at any manifold pressure. I recently reached the conclusion that = maybe my primary injectors were not working properly which was confirmed = by removing them and flow testing them. These injectors had over = 100,000 miles on them in the car if they hadn't been replaced somewhere = along the way. The original secondary injectors appeared to work fine. = I obtained 2 new injectors from RC engineering and installed them in the = primary positions with the original secondary injectors in the secondary = locations. The new ones are saturated disc type injectors of 440cc flow = rating as opposed to the peak and hold pintle type originals of 460 cc = flow rating. The engine could be tuned much better at higher manifold = pressures but still did not idle well, in fact the idle was much worse. = The original secondary injectors were then installed in the primary = locations and the new non stock injectors were installed in the = secondary locations. Idle was now much better at 2000 rpm but still is = a little rough below this to 1500 rpm which is as low as was tried. = Tuning at higher manifold pressures is still effective with this = configuration. While tuning the system on the ground this last weekend, I recorded = the pulse widths of the activating pulses of the primary injectors under = conditions of idle to full throttle. Pulse widths of as low as 1 = millisecond were observed at idle and just above the staging manifold = pressure while pulse widths of up to slightly over 3 milliseconds were = observed just below the staging point and at full throttle. The = supplier of the new injectors said that those injectors were not = expected to operate reliably at pulse widths less than about 1.5 = milliseconds which was also observed on the injector test stand. The = original secondary injectors worked down to about 1.2 milliseconds under = the same test conditions. The driver in the EC2 must be able to = operate the injectors at lower pulse widths than the test stand since = pulse widths less than 1.2 were observed in the plane with the engine = running quite well. It is my observation that in my case at least, the = injectors may be operated at the lower limit of their useful range at = idle and improvements to idle quality may be difficult. Rich settings = may be required to get the injectors working reliably at idle. Please note that these are only my observations and in spite of the = colder weather here in Wyoming, I have not seen density altitudes of = less than 7000 feet yet so what I see may not have much bearing on what = is observed in the real world. Also I may just be hallucinating due to = oxygen deprivation. Tracy, of course, would be the one to consult for = the best information. For what it is worth. Steve Boese 34 uneventful hours on RV6A, 13B NA, EC2, RD1A =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Steve Brooks Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 6:56 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Great Flight Tracey, You are correct. Messing with mode 3 in the air is not a good idea. = Also when it running good, not messing with it, is also a good idea. =20 I guess that I just had too much time on my hands on the 190 NM trip, = and had to see if I could make it better. I've added that to my list of = things NOT to do. As far as working with a turbo, the last update that I got about 10 = months ago works very well, and factory default tuning isn't too far = off. I have to give it about 4 clicks on mode 3 toward lean to get it = in at 23 MAP and 12 o'clock mixture. Lean it a little at lower power = levels, and go richer at higher power levels. The only thing I haven't figured out is how to get it to really idle = well. I have to run it rich to run fairly good, but it seems to run a = little rough. Leaning at idle makes it runs really well, just before it = dies. Steve Brooks=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C71EDD.B1AE14D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve (Brooks), everything Steve (Boese) said is correct & = relevant but=20 OTOH, I don't think you will ever get a truly smooth idle with your = intake=20 manifold since the primary injectors are so far away from the intake = port.
 
  A common misconception is that the long time & distance = will=20 give the fuel a better chance to vaporize.  The opposite is = true.  The=20 time & distance give the fuel a chance to condense on the cold walls = of the=20 runners.  There are other factors that make this a non-optimum = setup for=20 idle conditions but that's a long story.
 
Tracy  (agonizing over autopilot choice)
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: sboese
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, = 2006 11:15=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Great=20 Flight

Steve,

 

As I have = been=20 accumulating time on my installation, I have been trying to improve on = my=20 tuning of the fuel system also.  The system could never be tuned = to be=20 stable at any mixture setting except quite rich at any manifold=20 pressure.  I recently reached the conclusion that maybe my = primary=20 injectors were not working properly which was confirmed by removing = them and=20 flow testing them.   These injectors had over 100,000 miles = on them=20 in the car if they hadn=92t been replaced somewhere along the = way.  The=20 original secondary injectors appeared to work fine.  I obtained 2 = new=20 injectors from RC engineering and installed them in the primary = positions with=20 the original secondary injectors in the secondary locations.  The = new=20 ones are saturated disc type injectors of 440cc flow rating as opposed = to the=20 peak and hold pintle type originals of 460 cc flow rating.  The = engine=20 could be tuned much better at higher manifold pressures but still did = not idle=20 well, in fact the idle was much worse.  The original secondary = injectors=20 were then installed in the primary locations and the new non stock = injectors=20 were installed in the secondary locations.  Idle was now much = better at=20 2000 rpm but still is a little rough below this to 1500 rpm which is = as low as=20 was tried.  Tuning at higher manifold pressures is still = effective with=20 this configuration.

 

While = tuning the=20 system on the ground this last weekend, I recorded the pulse widths of = the=20 activating pulses of the primary injectors under conditions of idle to = full=20 throttle.  Pulse widths of as low as 1 millisecond were observed = at idle=20 and just above the staging manifold pressure while pulse widths of up = to=20 slightly over 3 milliseconds were observed just below the staging = point and at=20 full throttle.  The supplier of the new injectors said that those = injectors were not expected to operate reliably at pulse widths less = than=20 about 1.5 milliseconds which was also observed on the injector test=20 stand.  The original secondary injectors worked down to about 1.2 = milliseconds under the same test conditions.   The driver in = the EC2=20 must be able to operate the injectors at lower pulse widths than the = test=20 stand since pulse widths less than 1.2 were observed in the plane with = the=20 engine running quite well.  It is my observation that in my case = at=20 least, the injectors may be operated at the lower limit of their = useful range=20 at idle and improvements to idle quality may be difficult.  Rich = settings=20 may be required to get the injectors working reliably at=20 idle.

 

Please note = that=20 these are only my observations and in spite of the colder weather here = in=20 Wyoming, I have not seen density altitudes of less than 7000 feet yet = so what=20 I see may not have much bearing on what is observed in the real = world. =20 Also I may just be hallucinating due to oxygen deprivation.  = Tracy, of=20 course, would be the one to consult for the best=20 information.

 

For what it = is=20 worth=85

 

Steve=20 Boese

34 = uneventful hours=20 on RV6A, 13B NA, EC2, RD1A

 =20        

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve = Brooks
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, = 2006 6:56=20 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Great Flight

 

Tracey,

You = are=20 correct.  Messing with mode 3 in the air is not a good = idea.  Also=20 when it running good, not messing with it, is also a good idea. =20

 

I = guess that I just=20 had too much time on my hands on the 190 NM trip, and had to see if I = could=20 make it better.  I=92ve added that to my list of things NOT to=20 do.

 

As = far as working=20 with a turbo, the last update that I got about 10 months ago works = very well,=20 and factory default tuning isn=92t too far off.  I have to give = it about 4=20 clicks on mode 3 toward lean to get it in at 23 MAP and 12 o=92clock=20 mixture.  Lean it a little at lower power levels, and go richer = at higher=20 power levels.

 

The = only thing I=20 haven=92t figured out is how to get it to really idle well.  I = have to run=20 it rich to run fairly good, but it seems to run a little rough.  = Leaning=20 at idle makes it runs really well, just before it=20 dies.

 

Steve=20 Brooks=20 =

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