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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 13:55:06 -0800 (PST)
From: <fpbjr2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
In-Reply-To: <list-1640533@logan.com>
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mark
  we calibrated our probes to the efis one a couple
weeks ago. the results are very nice. we read to a
tenth of a gal. alarm brings the screen up at 5 gals
each side. the efis is nice you can do anything with
it.
   how are you progressing with your ES.
            paul   N117ES


--- "Steitle, Mark R" <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
wrote:

> Ed, 
> Call me paranoid, but my ES has three separate means
> to determine fuel level.  The first is the EM-2 that
> calculates the injector opening times and calculates
> fuel used/remaining.  The second is the BMA EFIS-1, 
> utilizing capacitive fuel probes, which show the
> fuel level in each tank via two fuel guages.  The
> last ditch effort is two GEMS ELS-1100 sensors, one
> in each tank that lite two LEDs when the fuel in the
> tank reaches 7 gallons.  Sort of a "reserve" warning
> indicator.  So, I hope to never become a member of
> the Rotary Glider Society, at least due to fuel
> starvation.
>  
> Mark S.    
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf of Ed
> Anderson
> Sent: Mon 12/4/2006 2:10 PM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
> 
> 
> I agree TJ.
>  
> However, just because you do know you bird's drink
> rate and how much you started out with does not
> preclude distractions, weather,  miscalculations,
> and general heads up and locked situation from
> getting a pilot into a fuel corner.  No blame - I
> agree - just lessons learned.  Again, its my view
> that ultimately the pilot (in most cases) is the one
> that is either responsible or could have made the
> difference - if......  
>  
> But, at least if  you do refuel when the opportunity
> presents itself, you have removed one significant
> factor and have given yourself more time.  I never
> take off without at least 1/2 of my fuel capacity
> and then only on hot days and a short runway where I
> feel getting my butt above the tree line is equally
> important to having sufficient fuel {:>).
>  
> The only time (as one old barn stormer is quoted
> saying) that you can have too much fuel is when you
> are on fire {:>).
>  
> Ed
> 
> 	----- Original Message ----- 
> 	From: Thomas y Reina Jakits
> <mailto:rijakits@cwpanama.net>  
> 	To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>  
> 	Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 2:18 PM
> 	Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
> 
> 	Ed,
> 	 
> 	you can always have a misshape/malfunction/gauge
> errors/etc.. But you do generally know how much your
> bird drinks - keeping going, because "there should
> be enough" is a no-no. 
> 	One knows you have or you don't. 
> 	Fill her up and you KNOW what you have....
> 	It's a mystery to me why J.Denver didn't fill up??
> 	 
> 	I also learned my mistake, just was fortunate
> enough to survive - I never try to blame the pilot,
> as I know how things come to be bad and then go
> worse - I just try to use these real world examples
> to show wrong believes/procedures to fellow pilots. 
> 	Maybe it saves one from grieve... if they choose to
> listen. Unfortunately a lot of the new/young guys
> have "can't happen to me!" or "Hey, I am the king of
> the sky and the universe!" attitude - until the S
> hits the F - I always just hope they get away alive
> and LEARN from it!
> 	 
> 	E.g.: Continuing the sample from below: A couple of
> days ago a college had close call ( Helo totaled,
> but everyone walked), just because he "could!" -
> when the performance charts couldn't, experience
> said "no!", Hightimers said "What for? Fly twice!" -
> Finding excuses is the next! 
> 	 
> 	TJ :(
> 
> 		----- Original Message ----- 
> 		From: Ed Anderson
> <mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com>  
> 		To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>  
> 		Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:58 PM
> 		Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
> 
> 		Yep! Late in life, I developed the philosophy that
> at every stop, I take to opportunity to fill up the
> wing tanks and drain the body tank. The first based
> on experience and the second on age.  {:>)  Both now
> essential requirements.  
> 		 
> 		Knowledge of fuel quantity almost always has at
> least a degree of uncertainty with it.  Even with
> fuel gauges, fuel flow and totalizer meters, there
> are always possibility of malfunctions, misreading
> them, accuracy, etc.  How much did you really put in
> that tank - base on what the pump fuel meter showed
> - is it accurate? did you zero out the meter before
> starting, did you rock the wings to get all the air
> pockets out? etc., etc.  
> 		 
> 		Then there is the fuel management side of things
> which ...err, ...  I won't go into - since I almost
> flunked that aspect.  
> 		 
> 		But, most of the time we have fuel related mishaps
> the pilot/builder shares a preponderance of the
> responsibility.
> 		 
> 		 
> 		Ed
> 
> 			----- Original Message ----- 
> 			From: Thomas y Reina Jakits
> <mailto:rijakits@cwpanama.net>  
> 			To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>  
> 			Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:35 PM
> 			Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
> 
> 			Kevin,
> 			 
> 			in regards to John Danver's crash - there was
> more than 1 thing wrong 
> 			a) with the plane
> 			b) with his airman ship for this specific flight
> 			 
> 			a) It is no secret that the tank selector
> "control access" was awkward AND rusted (obviously
> there was a Vis-Grip on it to be able to move it at
> all)
> 			Though it was the selector the plans are calling
> for, there was probably never any maintenance done
> to it.
> 			The location of the selector is of no concern (
> ... other than preferred location for different
> reasons), but the location of the selector CONTROL
> is very important.
> 			As mentioned before: torque tube, push/pull
> cable, bowden-cables whatever makes it move.
> Certainly keeping it MOVABLE is another part of the
> game.
> 			 
> 			Not to critize John Denver's airmanship in
> general - he was obviously an accomplished aviator -
> BUT for this specific flight and leading up to it,
> he showed less then perfection, rather negligence:
> 			 
> 			a) If you get into a new aircraft (as in never
> been in that specific airframe), first thing is to
> get familiar with at least the essential functions -
> fuel shut off being one.
> 			b) IF certain functions are different than in
> same type/model airframes you try them out - move
> them fro from your PIC position - if he would have
> done that he would have found out that something
> doesn't work there.
> 			c) I understand John was asked if he needed fuel
> on 2 previous stops and he declined, thinking he can
> "make it" with the remaining fuel.
> 			John of all had no reason to scrounge - so WHY
> not put in as much fuel as you can carry at every
> occasion possible??
> 			 
> 			Again, nothing personal against John, he seemed
> to be a very nice and likeable guy, but I think it
> is a wrong conclusion to blame a certain
> airframe/installation/etc. for what is basically a
> gross pilot error.
> 			 
> 			As a side note: We have a similar thing around my
> work area at this time: 
> 			A good ol' boy (actually a really nice guy!)
> crashed and died, because he was constantly flying
> with the low fuel light on!! 
> 			Short flights (2-3 nm), wanted to maximize
> External Load capacity and was flying the MD-500 on
> TIME rather than fuel indication!! ( no more than 20
> min of fuel on take-off....)
> 			Cynical thing was that he had two  55-gallon
> drums with fuel hanging underneath when he ran out
> of fuel!
> 			Now he was made into a martyr and semi-hero!
> Wrong move!
> 			 
> 			TJ
> 			 
> 			 
> 
=== message truncated ===> --
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