X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 30 [X] Return-Path: Received: from [201.225.225.169] (HELO cwpanama.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.3) with ESMTP id 1640754 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 04 Dec 2006 21:51:48 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=201.225.225.169; envelope-from=rijakits@cwpanama.net Received: from [201.224.94.164] (HELO usuario5ebe209) by frontend3.cwpanama.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with SMTP id 88269379 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 04 Dec 2006 22:00:07 -0500 Message-ID: <003201c71818$381488a0$a45ee0c9@usuario5ebe209> From: "Thomas y Reina Jakits" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:51:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01C717EE.4C5431F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C717EE.4C5431F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Amen Ed, again, I am no saint and I saw the low fuel light more than once, but = everytime was one time to many... Nowadays I start to get nervous when the needle approaches 1/4.... TJ Hey Lynn,=20 J. D.: WOW, I did not know that he was (in) that much trouble!! Doesn't = fit the general clich=E9 about him - but that's what a clich=E9 is I = guess.... TJ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 3:10 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges I agree TJ. However, just because you do know you bird's drink rate and how much = you started out with does not preclude distractions, weather, = miscalculations, and general heads up and locked situation from getting = a pilot into a fuel corner. No blame - I agree - just lessons learned. = Again, its my view that ultimately the pilot (in most cases) is the one = that is either responsible or could have made the difference - if...... = But, at least if you do refuel when the opportunity presents itself, = you have removed one significant factor and have given yourself more = time. I never take off without at least 1/2 of my fuel capacity and = then only on hot days and a short runway where I feel getting my butt = above the tree line is equally important to having sufficient fuel {:>). The only time (as one old barn stormer is quoted saying) that you can = have too much fuel is when you are on fire {:>). Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas y Reina Jakits=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 2:18 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges Ed, you can always have a misshape/malfunction/gauge errors/etc.. But = you do generally know how much your bird drinks - keeping going, because = "there should be enough" is a no-no.=20 One knows you have or you don't.=20 Fill her up and you KNOW what you have.... It's a mystery to me why J.Denver didn't fill up?? I also learned my mistake, just was fortunate enough to survive - I = never try to blame the pilot, as I know how things come to be bad and = then go worse - I just try to use these real world examples to show = wrong believes/procedures to fellow pilots.=20 Maybe it saves one from grieve... if they choose to listen. = Unfortunately a lot of the new/young guys have "can't happen to me!" or = "Hey, I am the king of the sky and the universe!" attitude - until the S = hits the F - I always just hope they get away alive and LEARN from it! E.g.: Continuing the sample from below: A couple of days ago a = college had close call ( Helo totaled, but everyone walked), just = because he "could!" - when the performance charts couldn't, experience = said "no!", Hightimers said "What for? Fly twice!" - Finding excuses is = the next!=20 TJ :( ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:58 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges Yep! Late in life, I developed the philosophy that at every stop, = I take to opportunity to fill up the wing tanks and drain the body tank. = The first based on experience and the second on age. {:>) Both now = essential requirements. =20 Knowledge of fuel quantity almost always has at least a degree of = uncertainty with it. Even with fuel gauges, fuel flow and totalizer = meters, there are always possibility of malfunctions, misreading them, = accuracy, etc. How much did you really put in that tank - base on what = the pump fuel meter showed - is it accurate? did you zero out the meter = before starting, did you rock the wings to get all the air pockets out? = etc., etc. =20 Then there is the fuel management side of things which ...err, ... = I won't go into - since I almost flunked that aspect. =20 But, most of the time we have fuel related mishaps the = pilot/builder shares a preponderance of the responsibility. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas y Reina Jakits=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:35 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges Kevin, in regards to John Danver's crash - there was more than 1 thing = wrong=20 a) with the plane b) with his airman ship for this specific flight a) It is no secret that the tank selector "control access" was = awkward AND rusted (obviously there was a Vis-Grip on it to be able to = move it at all) Though it was the selector the plans are calling for, there was = probably never any maintenance done to it. The location of the selector is of no concern ( ... other than = preferred location for different reasons), but the location of the = selector CONTROL is very important. As mentioned before: torque tube, push/pull cable, bowden-cables = whatever makes it move. Certainly keeping it MOVABLE is another part of = the game. Not to critize John Denver's airmanship in general - he was = obviously an accomplished aviator - BUT for this specific flight and = leading up to it, he showed less then perfection, rather negligence: a) If you get into a new aircraft (as in never been in that = specific airframe), first thing is to get familiar with at least the = essential functions - fuel shut off being one. b) IF certain functions are different than in same type/model = airframes you try them out - move them fro from your PIC position - if = he would have done that he would have found out that something doesn't = work there. c) I understand John was asked if he needed fuel on 2 previous = stops and he declined, thinking he can "make it" with the remaining = fuel. John of all had no reason to scrounge - so WHY not put in as = much fuel as you can carry at every occasion possible?? Again, nothing personal against John, he seemed to be a very = nice and likeable guy, but I think it is a wrong conclusion to blame a = certain airframe/installation/etc. for what is basically a gross pilot = error. As a side note: We have a similar thing around my work area at = this time:=20 A good ol' boy (actually a really nice guy!) crashed and died, = because he was constantly flying with the low fuel light on!!=20 Short flights (2-3 nm), wanted to maximize External Load = capacity and was flying the MD-500 on TIME rather than fuel indication!! = ( no more than 20 min of fuel on take-off....) Cynical thing was that he had two 55-gallon drums with fuel = hanging underneath when he ran out of fuel! Now he was made into a martyr and semi-hero! Wrong move! TJ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: kevin lane=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:25 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges I find it interesting that in regards to fuel in the cockpit = that the general consensus seems to be the opposite of what all RVs use, = i.e.. low and high pressure lines in the cockpit. I would guess that = Van gave his design a bit of a thought, considering the millions of = dollars he risks in lawsuits, and has his proof with thousands of planes = flying without problems. it is my understanding that john Denver had a = supposedly safe "no fuel in the cockpit" system which ignored the = practical aspect of being easy to use. I do recognize that it would be = difficult in an RV to get fuel from the wings to the engine without = going thru the cockpit, but with, what, 4000+ planes flying, is this a = perceived problem, or a real one? some guys squeezed fuel pumps between = the wing and the fuse, but you still have to get thru the firewall. = what scared me was the T-craft, with that tank up there behind the = panel.. my trainer plane leaked a bit, too. I feel the same way about oil pressure gauges. typically = you've got a line to the sender or the gauge.(I mostly see them mounted = on the firewall, not the engine block) people think "plastic" is no = good, but I don't see mine fatiguing. some guys have "plastic" brake = lines, some use AL, and some only use s/s lines. my only experience so = far with failure has been an electrical failure (alt shut down after = hour of peak demands and battery had dropped to 8 volts) in which case I = had no tach (had switched it to elec after drive shaft probs), fuel = gauges, oil temp, but I did have oil pressure and fuel pressure, = altimeter, A/S etc..... I was also glad that I had listened to Jeff = rose and kept one magneto (I was over crater lake in the cascade mtns. = at the time). so if you decide to go all electric, many do, remember it = also needs electric to run. same with EFIS, no CPU, no display. = kevin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wendell Voto=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:31 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lehanover@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:17 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges In a message dated 12/1/2006 9:33:27 P.M. Eastern Standard = Time, downing.j@sbcglobal.net writes: Some DAR's require that you have a valve and can reach = it with your seat belt on. I assume an electric one, as Ed mentioned = would also do. JohnD The control valve could be outside the cockpit and = operated by a dash mounted pointer with a long aluminum tube shaft = through the firewall to the valve. LYnn E. Hanover Speaking of fuel valves, the original Cozy plans call for = a manual selector valve mounted between the pilot and co-pilot with = lines up to the seat-back and then to the engine. This setup has several = connections in the cockpit that can leak.=20 As far as a fuel shut off valve, I don't plan on using = one, just turn off the fuel pumps. For maintenance I plan on ball valves = out of the tank (ahead of the sump tank) and these could be remotely = operated. Thanks to all for the responses on the gauges questions. = I found some sources for the VDO units and will look at the suggested = ones also. Any suggestions on water pressure gauge senders? Can't = find any yet. Wendell ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C717EE.4C5431F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Amen Ed,
again, I am no saint and I saw the low fuel light more than once, = but=20 everytime was one time to many...
Nowadays I start to get nervous when the needle approaches = 1/4....
 
TJ
 
Hey Lynn, 
 
J. D.: WOW, I did not know that he was (in) that much trouble!! = Doesn't fit=20 the general clich=E9 about him - but that's what a clich=E9 is I = guess....
 
TJ
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 = 3:10=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = gauges

I agree TJ.
 
However, just because you do know you bird's drink = rate and=20 how much you started out with does not preclude distractions, weather, =  miscalculations, and general heads up and locked situation from = getting=20 a pilot into a fuel corner.  No blame - I agree - just = lessons=20 learned.  Again, its my view that ultimately the pilot (in most = cases) is=20 the one that is either responsible or could have made the difference - = if...... 
 
But, at least if  you do refuel when the = opportunity presents itself, you have removed one significant factor = and have=20 given yourself more time.  I never take off without at least 1/2 = of my=20 fuel capacity and then only on hot days and a short runway where I = feel=20 getting my butt above the tree line is equally important to having = sufficient=20 fuel {:>).
 
The only time (as one old barn stormer is quoted = saying)=20 that you can have too much fuel is when you are on fire=20 {:>).
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Thomas y=20 Reina Jakits
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, December 04, = 2006 2:18=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = gauges

Ed,
 
you can always have a misshape/malfunction/gauge errors/etc.. = But you=20 do generally know how much your bird drinks - keeping going, because = "there=20 should be enough" is a no-no.
One knows you have or you don't.
Fill her up and you KNOW what you have....
It's a mystery to me why J.Denver didn't fill up??
 
I also learned my mistake, just was fortunate enough to survive = - I=20 never try to blame the pilot, as I know how things come to be bad = and then=20 go worse - I just try to use these real world examples to show wrong = believes/procedures to fellow pilots.
Maybe it saves one from grieve... if = they=20 choose to listen. Unfortunately a lot of the new/young guys have = "can't=20 happen to me!" or "Hey, I am the king of the sky and the universe!" = attitude=20 - until the S hits the F - I always just hope they get away = alive and=20 LEARN from it!
 
E.g.: Continuing the sample from below: A couple of days ago a = college=20 had close call ( Helo totaled, but everyone walked), just because he = "could!" - when the performance charts couldn't, experience said = "no!",=20 Hightimers said "What for? Fly twice!" - Finding excuses is the = next!
 
TJ :(
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, December 04, = 2006 12:58=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = gauges

Yep! Late in life, I developed the philosophy = that at=20 every stop, I take to opportunity to fill up the wing tanks and = drain the=20 body tank. The first based on experience and the second = on=20 age.  {:>)  Both now essential requirements. =20
 
Knowledge of fuel quantity almost always has = at least a=20 degree of uncertainty with it.  Even with fuel gauges, fuel = flow and=20 totalizer meters, there are always possibility of malfunctions, = misreading=20 them, accuracy, etc.  How much did you really put in that = tank - base=20 on what the pump fuel meter showed - is it accurate? did you zero = out the=20 meter before starting, did you rock the wings to get all the air = pockets=20 out? etc., etc. 
 
Then there is the fuel management side of = things which=20 ...err, ...  I won't go into - since I almost flunked that=20 aspect. 
 
But, most of the time we have fuel related = mishaps the=20 pilot/builder shares a preponderance of the = responsibility.
 
 
Ed
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Thomas y Reina Jakits =
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, December = 04, 2006=20 12:35 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 gauges

Kevin,
 
in regards to John Danver's crash - there was more than 1 = thing=20 wrong
a) with the plane
b) with his airman ship for this specific flight
 
a) It is no secret that the tank selector "control access"=20 was awkward AND rusted (obviously there was a Vis-Grip on = it to be=20 able to move it at all)
Though it was the selector the plans are calling for, there = was=20 probably never any maintenance done to it.
The location of the selector is of no concern ( ... other = than=20 preferred location for different reasons), but the location of = the=20 selector CONTROL is very important.
As mentioned before: torque tube, push/pull cable, = bowden-cables=20 whatever makes it move. Certainly keeping it MOVABLE is another = part of=20 the game.
 
Not to critize John Denver's airmanship in general - he was = obviously an accomplished aviator - BUT for this specific flight = and=20 leading up to it, he showed less then perfection, rather=20 negligence:
 
a) If you get into a new aircraft (as in never been in that = specific airframe), first thing is to get familiar with at least = the=20 essential functions - fuel shut off being one.
b) IF certain functions are different than in same = type/model=20 airframes you try them out - move them fro from your PIC = position - if=20 he would have done that he would have found out that something = doesn't=20 work there.
c) I understand John was asked if he needed fuel on 2 = previous=20 stops and he declined, thinking he can "make it" with the = remaining=20 fuel.
John of all had no reason to scrounge - so WHY not put in = as much=20 fuel as you can carry at every occasion possible??
 
Again, nothing personal against John, he seemed to be a = very nice=20 and likeable guy, but I think it is a wrong conclusion to blame = a=20 certain airframe/installation/etc. for what is basically a gross = pilot=20 error.
 
As a side note: We have a similar thing around my work area = at this=20 time:
A good ol' boy (actually a really nice guy!) crashed and = died,=20 because he was constantly flying with the low fuel light on!! =
Short flights (2-3 nm), wanted to maximize External Load = capacity=20 and was flying the MD-500 on TIME rather than fuel indication!! = ( no=20 more than 20 min of fuel on take-off....)
Cynical thing was that he had two  55-gallon = drums with=20 fuel hanging underneath when he ran out of fuel!
Now he was made into a martyr and semi-hero! Wrong = move!
 
TJ
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 kevin=20 lane
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Saturday, = December 02, 2006=20 12:25 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re:=20 gauges

I find it = interesting that in=20 regards to fuel in the cockpit that the general consensus = seems to be=20 the opposite of what all RVs use, i.e.. low and high pressure = lines in=20 the cockpit.  I would guess that Van gave his design a = bit of a=20 thought, considering the millions of dollars he risks in = lawsuits, and=20 has his proof with thousands of planes flying without = problems. =20 it is my understanding that john Denver had a supposedly safe = "no fuel=20 in the cockpit" system which ignored the practical aspect of = being=20 easy to use.  I do recognize that it would be difficult = in an RV=20 to get fuel from the wings to the engine without going thru = the=20 cockpit, but with, what, 4000+ planes flying, is this a = perceived=20 problem, or a real one?  some guys squeezed fuel pumps = between=20 the wing and the fuse, but you still have to get thru the=20 firewall.  what scared me was the T-craft, with that tank = up=20 there behind the panel.. my trainer plane leaked a bit,=20 too.
I feel the same way = about oil=20 pressure gauges.  typically you've got a line to the = sender or=20 the gauge.(I mostly see them mounted on the firewall, not the = engine=20 block)  people think "plastic" is no good, but I don't = see mine=20 fatiguing.  some guys have "plastic" brake lines, some = use AL,=20 and some only use s/s lines.  my only experience so far = with=20 failure has been an electrical failure (alt shut down after = hour of=20 peak demands and battery had dropped to 8 volts) in which case = I had=20 no tach (had switched it to elec after drive shaft probs), = fuel=20 gauges, oil temp, but I did have oil pressure and fuel = pressure,=20 altimeter, A/S etc.....  I was also glad that I had = listened to=20 Jeff rose and kept one magneto (I was over crater lake in the = cascade=20 mtns. at the time).  so if you decide to go all = electric,=20 many do, remember it also needs electric to run.  = same with=20 EFIS, no CPU, no display.    kevin
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Wendell=20 Voto
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Friday, = December 01, 2006=20 8:31 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re:=20 gauges

 
----- Original Message = -----
From:=20 Lehanover@aol.com =
To: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft
Sent: Friday, = December 01,=20 2006 9:17 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 gauges

In a message dated 12/1/2006 9:33:27 P.M. Eastern = Standard=20 Time, downing.j@sbcglobal.net=20 writes:
Some DAR's require that you have = a valve=20 and can reach it with your seat belt on.  I assume = an=20 electric one, as Ed mentioned would also do. =20 JohnD
The control valve could be outside the cockpit and = operated=20 by a dash mounted pointer with a long aluminum tube shaft = through=20 the firewall to the valve.
 
LYnn E. Hanover
 
Speaking of fuel valves, the = original=20 Cozy plans call for a manual selector valve = mounted =20 between the pilot and co-pilot with lines up to the = seat-back and=20 then to the engine. This setup has several connections in = the=20 cockpit that can leak.
 
As far as a fuel shut off = valve, I don't=20 plan on using one, just turn off the fuel pumps. For = maintenance I=20 plan on ball valves out of the tank (ahead of the sump = tank) and=20 these could be remotely operated.
 
Thanks to all for the responses = on the=20 gauges questions.  I found some sources for the VDO = units and=20 will look at the suggested ones also.
 
Any suggestions on water = pressure gauge=20 senders? Can't find any yet.
 
Wendell
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