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when first building my RV my hangar mate and I decided that low fuel warning lights would be a good idea. we installed some float switches from an industrial catalog (not GEMS) supposedly approved for gasoline. maybe a year later I had a wing root cover removed and noticed that the plastic sleeve was melting and the entire switch was being slowly extruded out of the tank. I was about to have a 3/4" hole in the low point of both tanks. since then I have given all my "safety" ideas rigorous examination for their abilities to kill me. I don't burn a tank dry anymore with the idea that switching back to those last few gallons(OK, now we're really serious about finding a landing spot!) may put me down safely. (no, I haven't reached that point ever.) kevin
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steitle, Mark R" <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:08 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
Ed,
Call me paranoid, but my ES has three separate means to determine fuel level. The first is the EM-2 that calculates the injector opening times and calculates fuel used/remaining. The second is the BMA EFIS-1, utilizing capacitive fuel probes, which show the fuel level in each tank via two fuel guages. The last ditch effort is two GEMS ELS-1100 sensors, one in each tank that lite two LEDs when the fuel in the tank reaches 7 gallons. Sort of a "reserve" warning indicator. So, I hope to never become a member of the Rotary Glider Society, at least due to fuel starvation.
Mark S.
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From: Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf of Ed Anderson
Sent: Mon 12/4/2006 2:10 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
I agree TJ.
However, just because you do know you bird's drink rate and how much you started out with does not preclude distractions, weather, miscalculations, and general heads up and locked situation from getting a pilot into a fuel corner. No blame - I agree - just lessons learned. Again, its my view that ultimately the pilot (in most cases) is the one that is either responsible or could have made the difference - if......
But, at least if you do refuel when the opportunity presents itself, you have removed one significant factor and have given yourself more time. I never take off without at least 1/2 of my fuel capacity and then only on hot days and a short runway where I feel getting my butt above the tree line is equally important to having sufficient fuel {:>).
The only time (as one old barn stormer is quoted saying) that you can have too much fuel is when you are on fire {:>).
Ed
----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas y Reina Jakits <mailto:rijakits@cwpanama.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 2:18 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
Ed,
you can always have a misshape/malfunction/gauge errors/etc.. But you do generally know how much your bird drinks - keeping going, because "there should be enough" is a no-no.
One knows you have or you don't.
Fill her up and you KNOW what you have....
It's a mystery to me why J.Denver didn't fill up??
I also learned my mistake, just was fortunate enough to survive - I never try to blame the pilot, as I know how things come to be bad and then go worse - I just try to use these real world examples to show wrong believes/procedures to fellow pilots.
Maybe it saves one from grieve... if they choose to listen. Unfortunately a lot of the new/young guys have "can't happen to me!" or "Hey, I am the king of the sky and the universe!" attitude - until the S hits the F - I always just hope they get away alive and LEARN from it!
E.g.: Continuing the sample from below: A couple of days ago a college had close call ( Helo totaled, but everyone walked), just because he "could!" - when the performance charts couldn't, experience said "no!", Hightimers said "What for? Fly twice!" - Finding excuses is the next!
TJ :(
----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Anderson <mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:58 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
Yep! Late in life, I developed the philosophy that at every stop, I take to opportunity to fill up the wing tanks and drain the body tank. The first based on experience and the second on age. {:>) Both now essential requirements.
Knowledge of fuel quantity almost always has at least a degree of uncertainty with it. Even with fuel gauges, fuel flow and totalizer meters, there are always possibility of malfunctions, misreading them, accuracy, etc. How much did you really put in that tank - base on what the pump fuel meter showed - is it accurate? did you zero out the meter before starting, did you rock the wings to get all the air pockets out? etc., etc.
Then there is the fuel management side of things which ...err, ... I won't go into - since I almost flunked that aspect.
But, most of the time we have fuel related mishaps the pilot/builder shares a preponderance of the responsibility.
Ed
----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas y Reina Jakits <mailto:rijakits@cwpanama.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:35 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
Kevin,
in regards to John Danver's crash - there was more than 1 thing wrong
a) with the plane
b) with his airman ship for this specific flight
a) It is no secret that the tank selector "control access" was awkward AND rusted (obviously there was a Vis-Grip on it to be able to move it at all)
Though it was the selector the plans are calling for, there was probably never any maintenance done to it.
The location of the selector is of no concern ( ... other than preferred location for different reasons), but the location of the selector CONTROL is very important.
As mentioned before: torque tube, push/pull cable, bowden-cables whatever makes it move. Certainly keeping it MOVABLE is another part of the game.
Not to critize John Denver's airmanship in general - he was obviously an accomplished aviator - BUT for this specific flight and leading up to it, he showed less then perfection, rather negligence:
a) If you get into a new aircraft (as in never been in that specific airframe), first thing is to get familiar with at least the essential functions - fuel shut off being one.
b) IF certain functions are different than in same type/model airframes you try them out - move them fro from your PIC position - if he would have done that he would have found out that something doesn't work there.
c) I understand John was asked if he needed fuel on 2 previous stops and he declined, thinking he can "make it" with the remaining fuel.
John of all had no reason to scrounge - so WHY not put in as much fuel as you can carry at every occasion possible??
Again, nothing personal against John, he seemed to be a very nice and likeable guy, but I think it is a wrong conclusion to blame a certain airframe/installation/etc. for what is basically a gross pilot error.
As a side note: We have a similar thing around my work area at this time:
A good ol' boy (actually a really nice guy!) crashed and died, because he was constantly flying with the low fuel light on!!
Short flights (2-3 nm), wanted to maximize External Load capacity and was flying the MD-500 on TIME rather than fuel indication!! ( no more than 20 min of fuel on take-off....)
Cynical thing was that he had two 55-gallon drums with fuel hanging underneath when he ran out of fuel!
Now he was made into a martyr and semi-hero! Wrong move!
TJ
----- Original Message ----- From: kevin lane <mailto:n3773@comcast.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:25 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
I find it interesting that in regards to fuel in the cockpit that the general consensus seems to be the opposite of what all RVs use, i.e.. low and high pressure lines in the cockpit. I would guess that Van gave his design a bit of a thought, considering the millions of dollars he risks in lawsuits, and has his proof with thousands of planes flying without problems. it is my understanding that john Denver had a supposedly safe "no fuel in the cockpit" system which ignored the practical aspect of being easy to use. I do recognize that it would be difficult in an RV to get fuel from the wings to the engine without going thru the cockpit, but with, what, 4000+ planes flying, is this a perceived problem, or a real one? some guys squeezed fuel pumps between the wing and the fuse, but you still have to get thru the firewall. what scared me was the T-craft, with that tank up there behind the panel.. my trainer plane leaked a bit, too.
I feel the same way about oil pressure gauges. typically you've got a line to the sender or the gauge.(I mostly see them mounted on the firewall, not the engine block) people think "plastic" is no good, but I don't see mine fatiguing. some guys have "plastic" brake lines, some use AL, and some only use s/s lines. my only experience so far with failure has been an electrical failure (alt shut down after hour of peak demands and battery had dropped to 8 volts) in which case I had no tach (had switched it to elec after drive shaft probs), fuel gauges, oil temp, but I did have oil pressure and fuel pressure, altimeter, A/S etc..... I was also glad that I had listened to Jeff rose and kept one magneto (I was over crater lake in the cascade mtns. at the time). so if you decide to go all electric, many do, remember it also needs electric to run. same with EFIS, no CPU, no display. kevin
----- Original Message ----- From: Wendell Voto <mailto:jwvoto@itlnet.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:31 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
----- Original Message ----- From: Lehanover@aol.com
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:17 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
In a message dated 12/1/2006 9:33:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, downing.j@sbcglobal.net writes:
Some DAR's require that you have a valve and can reach it with your seat belt on. I assume an electric one, as Ed mentioned would also do. JohnD
The control valve could be outside the cockpit and operated by a dash mounted pointer with a long aluminum tube shaft through the firewall to the valve.
LYnn E. Hanover
Speaking of fuel valves, the original Cozy plans call for a manual selector valve mounted between the pilot and co-pilot with lines up to the seat-back and then to the engine. This setup has several connections in the cockpit that can leak.
As far as a fuel shut off valve, I don't plan on using one, just turn off the fuel pumps. For maintenance I plan on ball valves out of the tank (ahead of the sump tank) and these could be remotely operated.
Thanks to all for the responses on the gauges questions. I found some sources for the VDO units and will look at the suggested ones also.
Any suggestions on water pressure gauge senders? Can't find any yet.
Wendell
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