X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 30 [X] Return-Path: Received: from [201.225.225.167] (HELO cwpanama.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.3) with ESMTP id 1639539 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 04 Dec 2006 14:19:15 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=201.225.225.167; envelope-from=rijakits@cwpanama.net Received: from [201.224.94.164] (HELO usuario5ebe209) by frontend1.cwpanama.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with SMTP id 89809541 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 04 Dec 2006 14:27:59 -0500 Message-ID: <000e01c717d9$008d70c0$a45ee0c9@usuario5ebe209> From: "Thomas y Reina Jakits" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 14:18:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C717AF.177BE660" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C717AF.177BE660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, you can always have a misshape/malfunction/gauge errors/etc.. But you do = generally know how much your bird drinks - keeping going, because "there = should be enough" is a no-no.=20 One knows you have or you don't.=20 Fill her up and you KNOW what you have.... It's a mystery to me why J.Denver didn't fill up?? I also learned my mistake, just was fortunate enough to survive - I = never try to blame the pilot, as I know how things come to be bad and = then go worse - I just try to use these real world examples to show = wrong believes/procedures to fellow pilots.=20 Maybe it saves one from grieve... if they choose to listen. = Unfortunately a lot of the new/young guys have "can't happen to me!" or = "Hey, I am the king of the sky and the universe!" attitude - until the S = hits the F - I always just hope they get away alive and LEARN from it! E.g.: Continuing the sample from below: A couple of days ago a college = had close call ( Helo totaled, but everyone walked), just because he = "could!" - when the performance charts couldn't, experience said "no!", = Hightimers said "What for? Fly twice!" - Finding excuses is the next!=20 TJ :( ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:58 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges Yep! Late in life, I developed the philosophy that at every stop, I = take to opportunity to fill up the wing tanks and drain the body tank. = The first based on experience and the second on age. {:>) Both now = essential requirements. =20 Knowledge of fuel quantity almost always has at least a degree of = uncertainty with it. Even with fuel gauges, fuel flow and totalizer = meters, there are always possibility of malfunctions, misreading them, = accuracy, etc. How much did you really put in that tank - base on what = the pump fuel meter showed - is it accurate? did you zero out the meter = before starting, did you rock the wings to get all the air pockets out? = etc., etc. =20 Then there is the fuel management side of things which ...err, ... I = won't go into - since I almost flunked that aspect. =20 But, most of the time we have fuel related mishaps the pilot/builder = shares a preponderance of the responsibility. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas y Reina Jakits=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:35 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges Kevin, in regards to John Danver's crash - there was more than 1 thing = wrong=20 a) with the plane b) with his airman ship for this specific flight a) It is no secret that the tank selector "control access" was = awkward AND rusted (obviously there was a Vis-Grip on it to be able to = move it at all) Though it was the selector the plans are calling for, there was = probably never any maintenance done to it. The location of the selector is of no concern ( ... other than = preferred location for different reasons), but the location of the = selector CONTROL is very important. As mentioned before: torque tube, push/pull cable, bowden-cables = whatever makes it move. Certainly keeping it MOVABLE is another part of = the game. Not to critize John Denver's airmanship in general - he was = obviously an accomplished aviator - BUT for this specific flight and = leading up to it, he showed less then perfection, rather negligence: a) If you get into a new aircraft (as in never been in that specific = airframe), first thing is to get familiar with at least the essential = functions - fuel shut off being one. b) IF certain functions are different than in same type/model = airframes you try them out - move them fro from your PIC position - if = he would have done that he would have found out that something doesn't = work there. c) I understand John was asked if he needed fuel on 2 previous stops = and he declined, thinking he can "make it" with the remaining fuel. John of all had no reason to scrounge - so WHY not put in as much = fuel as you can carry at every occasion possible?? Again, nothing personal against John, he seemed to be a very nice = and likeable guy, but I think it is a wrong conclusion to blame a = certain airframe/installation/etc. for what is basically a gross pilot = error. As a side note: We have a similar thing around my work area at this = time:=20 A good ol' boy (actually a really nice guy!) crashed and died, = because he was constantly flying with the low fuel light on!!=20 Short flights (2-3 nm), wanted to maximize External Load capacity = and was flying the MD-500 on TIME rather than fuel indication!! ( no = more than 20 min of fuel on take-off....) Cynical thing was that he had two 55-gallon drums with fuel hanging = underneath when he ran out of fuel! Now he was made into a martyr and semi-hero! Wrong move! TJ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: kevin lane=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:25 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges I find it interesting that in regards to fuel in the cockpit that = the general consensus seems to be the opposite of what all RVs use, = i.e.. low and high pressure lines in the cockpit. I would guess that = Van gave his design a bit of a thought, considering the millions of = dollars he risks in lawsuits, and has his proof with thousands of planes = flying without problems. it is my understanding that john Denver had a = supposedly safe "no fuel in the cockpit" system which ignored the = practical aspect of being easy to use. I do recognize that it would be = difficult in an RV to get fuel from the wings to the engine without = going thru the cockpit, but with, what, 4000+ planes flying, is this a = perceived problem, or a real one? some guys squeezed fuel pumps between = the wing and the fuse, but you still have to get thru the firewall. = what scared me was the T-craft, with that tank up there behind the = panel.. my trainer plane leaked a bit, too. I feel the same way about oil pressure gauges. typically you've = got a line to the sender or the gauge.(I mostly see them mounted on the = firewall, not the engine block) people think "plastic" is no good, but = I don't see mine fatiguing. some guys have "plastic" brake lines, some = use AL, and some only use s/s lines. my only experience so far with = failure has been an electrical failure (alt shut down after hour of peak = demands and battery had dropped to 8 volts) in which case I had no tach = (had switched it to elec after drive shaft probs), fuel gauges, oil = temp, but I did have oil pressure and fuel pressure, altimeter, A/S = etc..... I was also glad that I had listened to Jeff rose and kept one = magneto (I was over crater lake in the cascade mtns. at the time). so = if you decide to go all electric, many do, remember it also needs = electric to run. same with EFIS, no CPU, no display. kevin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wendell Voto=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:31 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lehanover@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:17 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges In a message dated 12/1/2006 9:33:27 P.M. Eastern Standard = Time, downing.j@sbcglobal.net writes: Some DAR's require that you have a valve and can reach it = with your seat belt on. I assume an electric one, as Ed mentioned would = also do. JohnD The control valve could be outside the cockpit and operated by = a dash mounted pointer with a long aluminum tube shaft through the = firewall to the valve. LYnn E. Hanover Speaking of fuel valves, the original Cozy plans call for a = manual selector valve mounted between the pilot and co-pilot with lines = up to the seat-back and then to the engine. This setup has several = connections in the cockpit that can leak.=20 As far as a fuel shut off valve, I don't plan on using one, = just turn off the fuel pumps. For maintenance I plan on ball valves out = of the tank (ahead of the sump tank) and these could be remotely = operated. Thanks to all for the responses on the gauges questions. I = found some sources for the VDO units and will look at the suggested ones = also. Any suggestions on water pressure gauge senders? Can't find = any yet. Wendell ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C717AF.177BE660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed,
 
you can always have a misshape/malfunction/gauge errors/etc.. But = you do=20 generally know how much your bird drinks - keeping going, because "there = should=20 be enough" is a no-no.
One knows you have or you don't.
Fill her up and you KNOW what you have....
It's a mystery to me why J.Denver didn't fill up??
 
I also learned my mistake, just was fortunate enough to survive - I = never=20 try to blame the pilot, as I know how things come to be bad and then go = worse -=20 I just try to use these real world examples to show wrong = believes/procedures to=20 fellow pilots.
Maybe it saves one from grieve... if they = choose=20 to listen. Unfortunately a lot of the new/young guys have "can't happen = to me!"=20 or "Hey, I am the king of the sky and the universe!" attitude - until = the S=20 hits the F - I always just hope they get away alive and LEARN from = it!
 
E.g.: Continuing the sample from below: A couple of days ago a = college had=20 close call ( Helo totaled, but everyone walked), just because he = "could!" - when=20 the performance charts couldn't, experience said "no!", Hightimers said = "What=20 for? Fly twice!" - Finding excuses is the next!
 
TJ :(
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 = 12:58=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = gauges

Yep! Late in life, I developed the philosophy that = at every=20 stop, I take to opportunity to fill up the wing tanks and drain the = body=20 tank. The first based on experience and the second on = age. =20 {:>)  Both now essential requirements. 
 
Knowledge of fuel quantity almost always has at = least a=20 degree of uncertainty with it.  Even with fuel gauges, fuel flow = and=20 totalizer meters, there are always possibility of malfunctions, = misreading=20 them, accuracy, etc.  How much did you really put in that tank - = base on=20 what the pump fuel meter showed - is it accurate? did you zero out the = meter=20 before starting, did you rock the wings to get all the air pockets = out? etc.,=20 etc. 
 
Then there is the fuel management side of things = which=20 ...err, ...  I won't go into - since I almost flunked that = aspect. =20
 
But, most of the time we have fuel related mishaps = the=20 pilot/builder shares a preponderance of the = responsibility.
 
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Thomas y=20 Reina Jakits
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, December 04, = 2006 12:35=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = gauges

Kevin,
 
in regards to John Danver's crash - there was more than 1 thing = wrong=20
a) with the plane
b) with his airman ship for this specific flight
 
a) It is no secret that the tank selector "control access"=20 was awkward AND rusted (obviously there was a Vis-Grip on it to = be able=20 to move it at all)
Though it was the selector the plans are calling for, there was = probably never any maintenance done to it.
The location of the selector is of no concern ( ... other than=20 preferred location for different reasons), but the location of the = selector=20 CONTROL is very important.
As mentioned before: torque tube, push/pull cable, = bowden-cables=20 whatever makes it move. Certainly keeping it MOVABLE is another part = of the=20 game.
 
Not to critize John Denver's airmanship in general - he was = obviously=20 an accomplished aviator - BUT for this specific flight and leading = up to it,=20 he showed less then perfection, rather negligence:
 
a) If you get into a new aircraft (as in never been in that = specific=20 airframe), first thing is to get familiar with at least the = essential=20 functions - fuel shut off being one.
b) IF certain functions are different than in same type/model = airframes=20 you try them out - move them fro from your PIC position - if he = would have=20 done that he would have found out that something doesn't work = there.
c) I understand John was asked if he needed fuel on 2 previous = stops=20 and he declined, thinking he can "make it" with the remaining = fuel.
John of all had no reason to scrounge - so WHY not put in as = much fuel=20 as you can carry at every occasion possible??
 
Again, nothing personal against John, he seemed to be a very = nice and=20 likeable guy, but I think it is a wrong conclusion to blame a = certain=20 airframe/installation/etc. for what is basically a gross pilot = error.
 
As a side note: We have a similar thing around my work area at = this=20 time:
A good ol' boy (actually a really nice guy!) crashed and died, = because=20 he was constantly flying with the low fuel light on!!
Short flights (2-3 nm), wanted to maximize External Load = capacity and=20 was flying the MD-500 on TIME rather than fuel indication!! ( no = more than=20 20 min of fuel on take-off....)
Cynical thing was that he had two  55-gallon drums = with fuel=20 hanging underneath when he ran out of fuel!
Now he was made into a martyr and semi-hero! Wrong move!
 
TJ
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 kevin lane=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Saturday, December = 02, 2006=20 12:25 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = gauges

I find it interesting = that in=20 regards to fuel in the cockpit that the general consensus seems to = be the=20 opposite of what all RVs use, i.e.. low and high pressure lines in = the=20 cockpit.  I would guess that Van gave his design a bit of a = thought,=20 considering the millions of dollars he risks in lawsuits, and has = his=20 proof with thousands of planes flying without problems.  it = is my=20 understanding that john Denver had a supposedly safe "no fuel in = the=20 cockpit" system which ignored the practical aspect of being easy = to=20 use.  I do recognize that it would be difficult in an RV to = get fuel=20 from the wings to the engine without going thru the cockpit, but = with,=20 what, 4000+ planes flying, is this a perceived problem, or a real=20 one?  some guys squeezed fuel pumps between the wing and the = fuse,=20 but you still have to get thru the firewall.  what scared me = was the=20 T-craft, with that tank up there behind the panel.. my trainer = plane=20 leaked a bit, too.
I feel the same way = about oil=20 pressure gauges.  typically you've got a line to the sender = or the=20 gauge.(I mostly see them mounted on the firewall, not the engine=20 block)  people think "plastic" is no good, but I don't see = mine=20 fatiguing.  some guys have "plastic" brake lines, some use = AL, and=20 some only use s/s lines.  my only experience so far with = failure has=20 been an electrical failure (alt shut down after hour of peak = demands and=20 battery had dropped to 8 volts) in which case I had no tach (had = switched=20 it to elec after drive shaft probs), fuel gauges, oil temp, but I = did have=20 oil pressure and fuel pressure, altimeter, A/S etc.....  I = was also=20 glad that I had listened to Jeff rose and kept one magneto (I was = over=20 crater lake in the cascade mtns. at the time).  so if = you decide=20 to go all electric, many do, remember it also needs electric = to=20 run.  same with EFIS, no CPU, no display.   =20 kevin
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Wendell=20 Voto
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, December = 01, 2006=20 8:31 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 gauges

 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Lehanover@aol.com
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Friday, December = 01, 2006=20 9:17 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re:=20 gauges

In a message dated 12/1/2006 9:33:27 P.M. Eastern = Standard Time,=20 downing.j@sbcglobal.net=20 writes:
Some DAR's require that you have a = valve and=20 can reach it with your seat belt on.  I assume an = electric one,=20 as Ed mentioned would also do. =20 JohnD
The control valve could be outside the cockpit and = operated by a=20 dash mounted pointer with a long aluminum tube shaft through = the=20 firewall to the valve.
 
LYnn E. Hanover
 
Speaking of fuel valves, the = original Cozy=20 plans call for a manual selector valve mounted  = between the=20 pilot and co-pilot with lines up to the seat-back and then to = the=20 engine. This setup has several connections in the cockpit that = can=20 leak.
 
As far as a fuel shut off valve, I = don't plan=20 on using one, just turn off the fuel pumps. For maintenance I = plan on=20 ball valves out of the tank (ahead of the sump tank) and these = could=20 be remotely operated.
 
Thanks to all for the responses on = the gauges=20 questions.  I found some sources for the VDO units and = will look=20 at the suggested ones also.
 
Any suggestions on water pressure = gauge=20 senders? Can't find any yet.
 
Wendell
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