X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 1 [X] Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.102] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.3) with ESMTP id 1639253 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 04 Dec 2006 12:59:30 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-100-190.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.100.190]) by ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id kB4HwljG006918 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2006 12:59:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000b01c717cd$e70816b0$0f02a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 12:58:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C717A3.F4A17AC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C717A3.F4A17AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yep! Late in life, I developed the philosophy that at every stop, I take = to opportunity to fill up the wing tanks and drain the body tank. The = first based on experience and the second on age. {:>) Both now = essential requirements. =20 Knowledge of fuel quantity almost always has at least a degree of = uncertainty with it. Even with fuel gauges, fuel flow and totalizer = meters, there are always possibility of malfunctions, misreading them, = accuracy, etc. How much did you really put in that tank - base on what = the pump fuel meter showed - is it accurate? did you zero out the meter = before starting, did you rock the wings to get all the air pockets out? = etc., etc. =20 Then there is the fuel management side of things which ...err, ... I = won't go into - since I almost flunked that aspect. =20 But, most of the time we have fuel related mishaps the pilot/builder = shares a preponderance of the responsibility. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas y Reina Jakits=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:35 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges Kevin, in regards to John Danver's crash - there was more than 1 thing wrong=20 a) with the plane b) with his airman ship for this specific flight a) It is no secret that the tank selector "control access" was awkward = AND rusted (obviously there was a Vis-Grip on it to be able to move it = at all) Though it was the selector the plans are calling for, there was = probably never any maintenance done to it. The location of the selector is of no concern ( ... other than = preferred location for different reasons), but the location of the = selector CONTROL is very important. As mentioned before: torque tube, push/pull cable, bowden-cables = whatever makes it move. Certainly keeping it MOVABLE is another part of = the game. Not to critize John Denver's airmanship in general - he was obviously = an accomplished aviator - BUT for this specific flight and leading up to = it, he showed less then perfection, rather negligence: a) If you get into a new aircraft (as in never been in that specific = airframe), first thing is to get familiar with at least the essential = functions - fuel shut off being one. b) IF certain functions are different than in same type/model = airframes you try them out - move them fro from your PIC position - if = he would have done that he would have found out that something doesn't = work there. c) I understand John was asked if he needed fuel on 2 previous stops = and he declined, thinking he can "make it" with the remaining fuel. John of all had no reason to scrounge - so WHY not put in as much fuel = as you can carry at every occasion possible?? Again, nothing personal against John, he seemed to be a very nice and = likeable guy, but I think it is a wrong conclusion to blame a certain = airframe/installation/etc. for what is basically a gross pilot error. As a side note: We have a similar thing around my work area at this = time:=20 A good ol' boy (actually a really nice guy!) crashed and died, because = he was constantly flying with the low fuel light on!!=20 Short flights (2-3 nm), wanted to maximize External Load capacity and = was flying the MD-500 on TIME rather than fuel indication!! ( no more = than 20 min of fuel on take-off....) Cynical thing was that he had two 55-gallon drums with fuel hanging = underneath when he ran out of fuel! Now he was made into a martyr and semi-hero! Wrong move! TJ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: kevin lane=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:25 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges I find it interesting that in regards to fuel in the cockpit that = the general consensus seems to be the opposite of what all RVs use, = i.e.. low and high pressure lines in the cockpit. I would guess that = Van gave his design a bit of a thought, considering the millions of = dollars he risks in lawsuits, and has his proof with thousands of planes = flying without problems. it is my understanding that john Denver had a = supposedly safe "no fuel in the cockpit" system which ignored the = practical aspect of being easy to use. I do recognize that it would be = difficult in an RV to get fuel from the wings to the engine without = going thru the cockpit, but with, what, 4000+ planes flying, is this a = perceived problem, or a real one? some guys squeezed fuel pumps between = the wing and the fuse, but you still have to get thru the firewall. = what scared me was the T-craft, with that tank up there behind the = panel.. my trainer plane leaked a bit, too. I feel the same way about oil pressure gauges. typically you've got = a line to the sender or the gauge.(I mostly see them mounted on the = firewall, not the engine block) people think "plastic" is no good, but = I don't see mine fatiguing. some guys have "plastic" brake lines, some = use AL, and some only use s/s lines. my only experience so far with = failure has been an electrical failure (alt shut down after hour of peak = demands and battery had dropped to 8 volts) in which case I had no tach = (had switched it to elec after drive shaft probs), fuel gauges, oil = temp, but I did have oil pressure and fuel pressure, altimeter, A/S = etc..... I was also glad that I had listened to Jeff rose and kept one = magneto (I was over crater lake in the cascade mtns. at the time). so = if you decide to go all electric, many do, remember it also needs = electric to run. same with EFIS, no CPU, no display. kevin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wendell Voto=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:31 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lehanover@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:17 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges In a message dated 12/1/2006 9:33:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, = downing.j@sbcglobal.net writes: Some DAR's require that you have a valve and can reach it with = your seat belt on. I assume an electric one, as Ed mentioned would also = do. JohnD The control valve could be outside the cockpit and operated by a = dash mounted pointer with a long aluminum tube shaft through the = firewall to the valve. LYnn E. Hanover Speaking of fuel valves, the original Cozy plans call for a = manual selector valve mounted between the pilot and co-pilot with lines = up to the seat-back and then to the engine. This setup has several = connections in the cockpit that can leak.=20 As far as a fuel shut off valve, I don't plan on using one, just = turn off the fuel pumps. For maintenance I plan on ball valves out of = the tank (ahead of the sump tank) and these could be remotely operated. Thanks to all for the responses on the gauges questions. I = found some sources for the VDO units and will look at the suggested ones = also. Any suggestions on water pressure gauge senders? Can't find any = yet. Wendell ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C717A3.F4A17AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yep! Late in life, I developed the philosophy that = at every=20 stop, I take to opportunity to fill up the wing tanks and drain the body = tank. The first based on experience and the second on = age. =20 {:>)  Both now essential requirements. 
 
Knowledge of fuel quantity almost always has at = least a degree=20 of uncertainty with it.  Even with fuel gauges, fuel flow and = totalizer=20 meters, there are always possibility of malfunctions, misreading them, = accuracy,=20 etc.  How much did you really put in that tank - base on what the = pump fuel=20 meter showed - is it accurate? did you zero out the meter before = starting, did=20 you rock the wings to get all the air pockets out? etc., etc. =20
 
Then there is the fuel management side of things = which ...err,=20 ...  I won't go into - since I almost flunked that aspect. =20
 
But, most of the time we have fuel related mishaps = the=20 pilot/builder shares a preponderance of the responsibility.
 
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Thomas y=20 Reina Jakits
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 = 12:35=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = gauges

Kevin,
 
in regards to John Danver's crash - there was more than 1 thing = wrong=20
a) with the plane
b) with his airman ship for this specific flight
 
a) It is no secret that the tank selector "control access"=20 was awkward AND rusted (obviously there was a Vis-Grip on it to = be able=20 to move it at all)
Though it was the selector the plans are calling for, there was = probably=20 never any maintenance done to it.
The location of the selector is of no concern ( ... other than = preferred=20 location for different reasons), but the location of the selector = CONTROL is=20 very important.
As mentioned before: torque tube, push/pull cable, bowden-cables = whatever=20 makes it move. Certainly keeping it MOVABLE is another part of the = game.
 
Not to critize John Denver's airmanship in general - he was = obviously an=20 accomplished aviator - BUT for this specific flight and leading up to = it, he=20 showed less then perfection, rather negligence:
 
a) If you get into a new aircraft (as in never been in that = specific=20 airframe), first thing is to get familiar with at least the essential=20 functions - fuel shut off being one.
b) IF certain functions are different than in same type/model = airframes=20 you try them out - move them fro from your PIC position - if he would = have=20 done that he would have found out that something doesn't work = there.
c) I understand John was asked if he needed fuel on 2 previous = stops and=20 he declined, thinking he can "make it" with the remaining fuel.
John of all had no reason to scrounge - so WHY not put in as much = fuel as=20 you can carry at every occasion possible??
 
Again, nothing personal against John, he seemed to be a very nice = and=20 likeable guy, but I think it is a wrong conclusion to blame a certain=20 airframe/installation/etc. for what is basically a gross pilot = error.
 
As a side note: We have a similar thing around my work area at = this time:=20
A good ol' boy (actually a really nice guy!) crashed and died, = because he=20 was constantly flying with the low fuel light on!!
Short flights (2-3 nm), wanted to maximize External Load capacity = and was=20 flying the MD-500 on TIME rather than fuel indication!! ( no more than = 20 min=20 of fuel on take-off....)
Cynical thing was that he had two  55-gallon drums with = fuel=20 hanging underneath when he ran out of fuel!
Now he was made into a martyr and semi-hero! Wrong move!
 
TJ
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 kevin = lane=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Saturday, December 02, = 2006 12:25=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = gauges

I find it interesting = that in regards=20 to fuel in the cockpit that the general consensus seems to be the = opposite=20 of what all RVs use, i.e.. low and high pressure lines in the = cockpit. =20 I would guess that Van gave his design a bit of a thought, = considering the=20 millions of dollars he risks in lawsuits, and has his proof with = thousands=20 of planes flying without problems.  it is my understanding that = john=20 Denver had a supposedly safe "no fuel in the cockpit" system which = ignored=20 the practical aspect of being easy to use.  I do recognize that = it=20 would be difficult in an RV to get fuel from the wings to the engine = without=20 going thru the cockpit, but with, what, 4000+ planes flying, is this = a=20 perceived problem, or a real one?  some guys squeezed fuel = pumps=20 between the wing and the fuse, but you still have to get thru the=20 firewall.  what scared me was the T-craft, with that tank up = there=20 behind the panel.. my trainer plane leaked a bit, too.
I feel the same way about = oil=20 pressure gauges.  typically you've got a line to the sender or = the=20 gauge.(I mostly see them mounted on the firewall, not the engine=20 block)  people think "plastic" is no good, but I don't see mine = fatiguing.  some guys have "plastic" brake lines, some use AL, = and some=20 only use s/s lines.  my only experience so far with failure has = been an=20 electrical failure (alt shut down after hour of peak demands and = battery had=20 dropped to 8 volts) in which case I had no tach (had switched it to = elec=20 after drive shaft probs), fuel gauges, oil temp, but I did have oil = pressure=20 and fuel pressure, altimeter, A/S etc.....  I was also glad = that I had=20 listened to Jeff rose and kept one magneto (I was over crater lake = in the=20 cascade mtns. at the time).  so if you decide to go all = electric,=20 many do, remember it also needs electric to run.  same = with EFIS,=20 no CPU, no display.    kevin
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Wendell=20 Voto
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, December 01, = 2006 8:31=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = gauges

 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Lehanover@aol.com
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, December = 01, 2006=20 9:17 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 gauges

In a message dated 12/1/2006 9:33:27 P.M. Eastern Standard = Time, downing.j@sbcglobal.net=20 writes:
Some DAR's require that you have a = valve and can=20 reach it with your seat belt on.  I assume an electric = one, as Ed=20 mentioned would also do. =20 JohnD
The control valve could be outside the cockpit and operated = by a=20 dash mounted pointer with a long aluminum tube shaft through the = firewall to the valve.
 
LYnn E. Hanover
 
Speaking of fuel valves, the original = Cozy=20 plans call for a manual selector valve mounted  = between the=20 pilot and co-pilot with lines up to the seat-back and then to = the=20 engine. This setup has several connections in the cockpit that = can leak.=20
 
As far as a fuel shut off valve, I = don't plan=20 on using one, just turn off the fuel pumps. For maintenance I = plan on=20 ball valves out of the tank (ahead of the sump tank) and these = could be=20 remotely operated.
 
Thanks to all for the responses on = the gauges=20 questions.  I found some sources for the VDO units and will = look at=20 the suggested ones also.
 
Any suggestions on water pressure = gauge=20 senders? Can't find any yet.
 
Wendell
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