X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-PolluStop: No license found, only first 5 messages were scanned Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-01.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.100] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1c.1) with ESMTP id 1209652 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:50:53 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.100; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-111-186.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.111.186]) by ms-smtp-01.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k5SBo64B004823 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:50:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003f01c69aa9$0128f610$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] damage report Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:50:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01C69A87.79C628D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C69A87.79C628D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, just a guess - but, since the rotors are oil cooled, I would check = to see if any material has possibly blocked the oil jet hole on the e = shaft for rotor 2. Unscrew the set screw and withdraw ball and spring = and check. I thought possibly the e shaft thermal pellet plug might possibly not = be correct length (it varies depending on year model and type of pulley) = letting some e shaft oil flow into the pan. But, since Rotor 2 is = closer to the end of the e shaft from which the oil comes, I would think = it would have first dibs on any oil pressure/ flow. Rotor 2 is normally the one that runs a bit hotter due to the coolant = flow pattern which takes it past rotor 1 first thereby absorbing heat = and reducing the Delta T before moving on to rotor 2. But, unless you = have had a couple of serious coolant overheat problems - I wouldn't = think coolant system would be the problem. I notice that you are apparently using stock apex seals which are more = prone to fracturing. I would put some of Tracy's Apex seals in when you = rebuild it. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Eslick=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:30 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] damage report Quick report: With over 400 hours on my engine, I was in the process = of testing the pressure differential across various points on my cowl in = search of more effective outlet for cooling air. The idle has been getting rough for the last several weeks, and my = testing runs made me think it was getting worse. Since we all know it = is important to "listen" to your engine when it is speaking to you, I = started (again) to try to track down the cause. New plugs would help = but only for a few minutes. Tried switching coils and injectors on and = off, but no change. Seemed to be running very rich at idle no matter = what I did. Manual leaning would not make it smooth, but it would kill = the engine! All was smooth above about 2500 rpm.=20 Finally pulled the schrader valve from my compression tester and spun = it with the starter. Rotor one was a nice 100-100-100 for bumps. Rotor = 2 was 60-60-85. Oops. Looks like a bad apex seal? Just tore it down today and attached is a photo of the broken apex = seal. Also found a chip from the outer (compression side) oil seal on = that rotor. Not shown are the SIX missing (melted??) rubber plugs from = the corner seals, and two corner seal wire springs that are completely = missing! The ones remaining are completely flat and looked like they = were disintegrating from heat.=20 Rotor one looked to be in good shape all around. Rubber plugs were = hardened, but still functioning, and the wire springs were springing. I can see that maybe if the rubber plugs melted, it would allow the = small triangular part of the apex seal to drop down and somehow allow = the longer piece to break. Does this sound reasonable? LARGER QUESTION: It is obvious to me that a LOT of heat was generated = to melt the rubber plugs on BOTH sides of the rotor. Does anyone care = to venture a guess as to why that rotor was so much hotter than the = other? The EGTs were within a few degrees most of the time. I will = double check the oil jet that cools the rotor tomorrow.=20 (Jason just about has his 3rd gen back together. I am eyeing the size = of his intake ports....................) --=20 Bill Eslick www.weslick.com=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C69A87.79C628D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill, just a guess - but, since the rotors are = oil cooled,=20 I would check to see if any material has possibly blocked the oil jet = hole on=20 the e shaft for rotor 2.  Unscrew the set screw and withdraw ball = and=20 spring and check.
 
  I thought possibly the e shaft thermal = pellet plug=20 might possibly not be correct length (it varies depending on year model = and type=20 of pulley) letting some e shaft oil flow into the pan.  But,=20  since Rotor 2 is closer to the end of the e shaft from which the = oil=20 comes, I would think it would have first dibs on any oil=20 pressure/ flow.
 
Rotor 2 is normally the one that runs a bit = hotter due to=20 the coolant flow pattern which takes it past rotor 1 first thereby = absorbing=20 heat and reducing the Delta T before moving on to rotor 2.  But, = unless you=20 have had a couple of serious coolant overheat problems - I wouldn't = think=20 coolant system would be the problem.
 
I notice that you are apparently using stock = apex seals=20 which are more prone to fracturing.  I would put some of Tracy's = Apex seals=20 in when you rebuild it.
 
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill = Eslick=20
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 = 10:30=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] damage = report

Quick report:  With over 400 hours on my engine, I was in = the=20 process of testing the pressure differential across various points on = my cowl=20 in search of more effective outlet for cooling air.
 
The idle has been getting rough for the last several weeks, and = my=20 testing runs made me think it was getting worse.  Since we all = know it is=20 important to "listen" to your engine when it is speaking to you, I = started=20 (again) to try to track down the cause.  New plugs would help but = only=20 for a few minutes.  Tried switching coils and injectors on and = off, but=20 no change.  Seemed to be running very rich at idle no matter = what I=20 did.  Manual leaning would not make it smooth, but it would = kill the=20 engine!  All was smooth above about 2500 rpm.
 
Finally pulled the schrader valve from my compression tester and = spun it=20 with the starter.  Rotor one was a nice 100-100-100 for = bumps. =20 Rotor 2 was 60-60-85.  Oops.  Looks like a bad apex = seal?
 
Just tore it down today and attached is a photo of the broken = apex seal.=20 Also found a chip from the outer (compression side) oil seal on that=20 rotor.  Not shown are the SIX missing (melted??) rubber = plugs from=20 the corner seals, and two corner seal wire springs that are completely = missing!  The ones remaining are completely flat and looked like = they=20 were disintegrating from heat.
 
Rotor one looked to be in good shape all around.  Rubber = plugs were=20 hardened, but still functioning, and the wire springs were=20 springing.
 
I can see that maybe if the rubber plugs melted, it would allow = the small=20 triangular part of the apex seal to drop down and somehow allow the = longer=20 piece to break.  Does this sound reasonable?
 
LARGER QUESTION:  It is obvious to me that a LOT of heat was = generated to melt the rubber plugs on BOTH sides of the rotor.  = Does=20 anyone care to venture a guess as to why that rotor was so much hotter = than=20 the other?  The EGTs were within a few degrees most of the = time.  I=20 will double check the oil jet that cools the rotor tomorrow.
 
(Jason just about has his 3rd gen back together.  I am = eyeing the=20 size of his intake ports....................)
--
Bill = Eslick
www.weslick.com

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and=20 UnSub:  =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
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