X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail17.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.198] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.9) with ESMTPS id 1152090 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 03:29:27 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.198; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d58-105-79-31.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [58.105.79.31]) by mail17.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id k5D7SWFY007956 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:28:35 +1000 Message-ID: <004b01c6aa3b$df5eeb50$1f4f693a@george> From: "george lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: OT: Concrete forms Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:29:14 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0048_01C6AA8F.B0490AE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C6AA8F.B0490AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, I just realised that - must have had a computer glitch. George ( down under) George, Would you be so kind as to come back from July and into June with the = rest of us? Mike ----- Original Message ---- From: george lendich To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 6:15:57 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: OT: Concrete forms Finn, I would use plywood forms secured at the corners, you also need bolts through tubes at regular intervals throughout, with good sized washers = under those bolt heads. The tubes themselves act as spacers and could be = secured to the reinforcing bars so as to secure the form position however you = would also need to secure the base somehow so that it didn't move around as = well as some timber braces to maintain the top position. If it were me I would do a metre at a time and use the top tube holes = after the concrete has set, as the new bottom form holes. Leave the top rough so as the new concrete has something to bite into = - if you use a concrete vibrator don't do it too much as the larger stones migrate to the bottom and weaken the structure, just enough to get out = any cavities ( bubbles)i.e. half a minute. My figures ( by memory) = indicate about a ton per cubic metre. George (down under) > Finn, I have designed concrete forms in my day > job, however they were of a different variety > compared to what your doing. > [Metal pre-cast forms for man holes, city sew > systems and various "under Street" concrete > structures] > > It would seem to me that your major problem is > going to be hydraulic pressure at the bottom of > the form. > If concrete weigh's 150lb's per cubic foot 16" x > 16" x 104"=3D26624/1728=3D15.4 cubic feet or 2311 lb's > of concrete. > Now if my numbers are right you should be dealing > w/ 9.0 PSI pressure around the form at 1" > elevation. > I don't think just plywood is going to cut it.. > if you strapped the bottom circ. w/ 2 x 4 and > then the following elevations > [ all measured from Datum=3D bottom of colum] > > 3" > 6" > 9" > 12" > 15" > 18" > 21" > 25" > 29" > 33" > 37" > 42" > 47" > 52" > 58" > 64" > 72" > 82" > 104" > > All elevations should be strapped by a 2 x 4 [23" > lng + 2x plywood thickness]around the circ. [2" > high x 4" out from the form] > > These numbers should keep all loads below 500lb's > force on the 2x4 strapping at each elevation[at > each side]. Hydaulic pressure isn't my strong > suite [ I'm a draftsman not an engineer] > Hopefully someone will look this over and tell me > I'm an idiot.. but.. If I was going to do it.. > this is how I'd go about it.... > Also worth noting, if you do taper tha colum, make > sure you secure the bottom of it to the floor or > it will float off.. and all your concrete > will come spilling out the bottom [ don't ask my > how I know this!] > Actually regardless how you do it.. it would be > worth adding a couple concrete nails at the bottom > to make sure it doesn't float.. a non-tapered > colum form could float also.. > > Jarrett Johnson.. [wondering how desperate Finn is > to use/ my numbers now... :-) ] > > > > > > > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Finn Lassen" > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 9:40 PM > Subject: [FlyRotary] OT: Concrete forms > > > > This is only remotely related to rotaries (home > > of my future > > rotary-powered RV-4) so please reply off-list. > > > > After having worked for three weekends putting > > up block and only having > > done 1 1/2 corners out of 3 so far, I'm > > seriously considering building > > forms and having the 9 16x16" columns poured > > rather that building them > > up with 16x16" column blocks. > > > > If anybody here on the list are familiar with > > making concrete forms, I > > sure could use some advice. > > Columns will be 8' 8" tall and will be > > supporting 10' long 8x8" lintels > > with a row of lintel blocks on top. > > > > How thick does the plywood have to be to handle > > a 8'8" tall 16x16" > > column of concrete? > > > > I'm considering using my future 2x4 or 2x6 frame > > wall studs to form the > > outside corners of the forms - two along each > > corner of the form screwed > > together (8 per form). > > > > Another issue is the option of tapering the > > columns: 16x16 at bottom > > tapering to 8x16" at top. In my mind that would > > not change the structual > > strength of the columns; would save concrete > > (25%) and possibly require > > less hefty plywood. > > > > I sure could use some advice on both counts. > > > > Keywords here are "cheaper" and "easier". > > > > 16x16" column blocks are now $3.21 a piece - 13 > > per column. > > The extra concrete to replace one block is about > > $2.60 (or $1.95 if > > tapering the columns). > > So I'd mainly just be paying for the plywood > > for the forms - seems > > worthwhile compared to the work of "stacking" > > the 117 column blocks. > > Ideally the forms would also be able to support > > the lintels and lintel > > blocks so everything could be poured in one go. > > > > Finn > > > > > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ------ > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > > http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ > > > > > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.2/356 - > Release Date: 6/5/2006 > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ > -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C6AA8F.B0490AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,
I just realised that - must have had a = computer=20 glitch.
George ( down under)
George,

Would you be so kind as to come back from July and = into=20 June with the rest of us?

Mike

----- Original Message=20 ----
From: george lendich <lendich@optusnet.com.au>To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Wednesday, July 12, 2006 6:15:57 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: OT: = Concrete=20 forms

Finn,
I would use plywood forms secured at the corners, you = also need=20 bolts
through tubes at regular intervals throughout, with good = sized=20 washers under
those bolt heads. The tubes themselves act as spacers = and=20 could be secured
to the reinforcing bars so as to secure the form = position=20 however you would
also need to secure the base somehow so that it = didn't=20 move around as well
as some timber braces to maintain the top=20 position.

If it were me I would do a metre at a time and use=20 the  top tube holes after
the concrete has set, as the = new bottom=20 form holes.

Leave the top rough so as the new concrete has = something to=20 bite into - if
you use a concrete vibrator don't do it too much as = the=20 larger stones
migrate to the bottom and weaken the structure, just = enough=20 to get out any
cavities ( bubbles)i.e. half a minute. My figures ( = by=20 memory) indicate
about a ton per cubic metre.

George (down=20 under)

> Finn, I have designed concrete forms in my = day
> job,=20 however they were of a different variety
> compared to what your = doing.
> [Metal pre-cast forms for man holes, city sew
> = systems=20 and various "under Street" concrete
> = structures]
>
> It=20 would seem to me that your major problem is
> going to be = hydraulic=20 pressure at the bottom of
> the form.
> If concrete = weigh's=20 150lb's per cubic foot 16" x
> 16" x 104"=3D26624/1728=3D15.4 = cubic feet or=20 2311 lb's
> of concrete.
> Now if my numbers are right you = should=20 be dealing
> w/ 9.0 PSI pressure around the form at 1"
>=20 elevation.
> I don't think just plywood is going to cut = it..
> if=20 you strapped the bottom circ. w/ 2 x 4  and
> then the = following elevations
> [ all measured from Datum=3D bottom of=20 colum]
>
> 3"
> 6"
> 9"
> 12"
>=20 15"
> 18"
> 21"
> 25"
> 29"
> = 33"
>=20 37"
> 42"
> 47"
> 52"
> 58"
> = 64"
>=20 72"
> 82"
> 104"
>
> All elevations should be = strapped=20 by a 2 x 4  [23"
> lng + 2x plywood thickness]around = the circ.=20 [2"
> high x 4" out from the form]
>
> These numbers = should=20 keep all loads below 500lb's
> force on the 2x4 strapping at = each=20 elevation[at
> each side].  Hydaulic pressure isn't my = strong
> suite [ I'm a draftsman not an engineer]
> = Hopefully=20 someone will look this over and tell me
> I'm an idiot.. but.. = If I was=20 going to do it..
> this is how I'd go about it....
> Also = worth=20 noting, if you do taper tha colum, make
> sure you secure the = bottom of=20 it to the floor or
> it will float off.. and all your = concrete
>=20 will come spilling out the bottom [ don't ask my
> how I know=20 this!]
> Actually regardless how you do it.. it would be
> = worth=20 adding a couple concrete nails at the bottom
> to make sure it = doesn't=20 float.. a non-tapered
> colum form could float = also..
>
>=20 Jarrett Johnson.. [wondering how desperate Finn is
> to use/ my = numbers=20 now...=20 = :-)  ]
>
>
>
>
>
>
><= BR>>=20 ---- Original Message -----
> From: "Finn Lassen"=20 <finn.lassen@verizon.net>
> To: "Rotary motors in=20 aircraft"
> <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Sent: = Tuesday,=20 June 06, 2006 9:40 PM
> Subject: [FlyRotary] OT: Concrete=20 forms
>
>
> > This is only remotely related to = rotaries=20 (home
> > of my future
> > rotary-powered RV-4) so = please=20 reply off-list.
> >
> > After having worked for = three=20 weekends putting
> > up block and only having
> > = done 1 1/2=20 corners out of 3 so far, I'm
> > seriously considering=20 building
> > forms and having the 9 16x16" columns = poured
>=20 > rather that building them
> > up with 16x16" column=20 blocks.
> >
> > If anybody here on the list are = familiar=20 with
> > making concrete forms, I
> > sure could use = some=20 advice.
> > Columns will be 8' 8" tall and will be
> = >=20 supporting 10' long 8x8" lintels
> > with a row of lintel = blocks on=20 top.
> >
> > How thick does the plywood have to be = to=20 handle
> > a 8'8" tall 16x16"
> > column of=20 concrete?
> >
> > I'm considering using my future = 2x4 or 2x6=20 frame
> > wall studs to form the
> > outside corners = of the=20 forms - two along each
> > corner of the form screwed
> = >=20 together (8 per form).
> >
> > Another issue is the = option=20 of tapering the
> > columns: 16x16 at bottom
> > = tapering to=20 8x16" at top. In my mind that would
> > not change the=20 structual
> > strength of the columns; would save = concrete
>=20 > (25%) and possibly require
> > less hefty = plywood.
>=20 >
> > I sure could use some advice on both counts.
> = >
> > Keywords here are "cheaper" and "easier".
>=20 >
> > 16x16" column blocks are now $3.21 a piece - = 13
> >=20 per column.
> > The extra concrete to replace one block is=20 about
> > $2.60 (or  $1.95 if
> > tapering = the=20 columns).
> > So I'd mainly just be paying  for the = plywood
> > for the forms - seems
> > worthwhile = compared to=20 the work of "stacking"
> > the 117 column blocks.
> = >=20 Ideally the forms would also be able to support
> > the = lintels and=20 lintel
> > blocks so everything could be poured in one = go.
>=20 >
> > Finn
> >
>
>
>=20 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -
------
>
>
>=20 > --
> > Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and = UnSub:
> > http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>= ;=20 >
>
>
>=20 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -
------
>
>
>=20 No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free=20 Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.2/356 = -
>=20 Release Date: 6/5/2006
>
>
> --
>=20 Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>= ;



--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:  =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
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