X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web81203.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.107] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.9) with SMTP id 1151850 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 22:31:16 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.142.199.107; envelope-from=mike.lafleur@sbcglobal.net Received: (qmail 10407 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Jun 2006 02:30:23 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=L9tiFcKNWCKwjb2oPmf0+RlX2XS39bSkQiAa+GLHMLE6gGqlxrpL/bb1tyWBvYWH35I920sMxZN6MI3lW9cCMObfvUWm+GPeNjydWioiSJHijI7CY0jryYUOx4Y0vMeE0su6BcO6aQvAR7dNx/x55OJQ6Bvtp+csujpJ6aZPQi8= ; Message-ID: <20060613023023.10401.qmail@web81203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 19:30:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael LaFleur Reply-To: Michael LaFleur Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: OT: Concrete forms To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-423539661-1150165823=:827" --0-423539661-1150165823=:827 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii George, Would you be so kind as to come back from July and into June with the rest of us? Mike ----- Original Message ---- From: george lendich To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 6:15:57 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: OT: Concrete forms Finn, I would use plywood forms secured at the corners, you also need bolts through tubes at regular intervals throughout, with good sized washers under those bolt heads. The tubes themselves act as spacers and could be secured to the reinforcing bars so as to secure the form position however you would also need to secure the base somehow so that it didn't move around as well as some timber braces to maintain the top position. If it were me I would do a metre at a time and use the top tube holes after the concrete has set, as the new bottom form holes. Leave the top rough so as the new concrete has something to bite into - if you use a concrete vibrator don't do it too much as the larger stones migrate to the bottom and weaken the structure, just enough to get out any cavities ( bubbles)i.e. half a minute. My figures ( by memory) indicate about a ton per cubic metre. George (down under) > Finn, I have designed concrete forms in my day > job, however they were of a different variety > compared to what your doing. > [Metal pre-cast forms for man holes, city sew > systems and various "under Street" concrete > structures] > > It would seem to me that your major problem is > going to be hydraulic pressure at the bottom of > the form. > If concrete weigh's 150lb's per cubic foot 16" x > 16" x 104"=26624/1728=15.4 cubic feet or 2311 lb's > of concrete. > Now if my numbers are right you should be dealing > w/ 9.0 PSI pressure around the form at 1" > elevation. > I don't think just plywood is going to cut it.. > if you strapped the bottom circ. w/ 2 x 4 and > then the following elevations > [ all measured from Datum= bottom of colum] > > 3" > 6" > 9" > 12" > 15" > 18" > 21" > 25" > 29" > 33" > 37" > 42" > 47" > 52" > 58" > 64" > 72" > 82" > 104" > > All elevations should be strapped by a 2 x 4 [23" > lng + 2x plywood thickness]around the circ. [2" > high x 4" out from the form] > > These numbers should keep all loads below 500lb's > force on the 2x4 strapping at each elevation[at > each side]. Hydaulic pressure isn't my strong > suite [ I'm a draftsman not an engineer] > Hopefully someone will look this over and tell me > I'm an idiot.. but.. If I was going to do it.. > this is how I'd go about it.... > Also worth noting, if you do taper tha colum, make > sure you secure the bottom of it to the floor or > it will float off.. and all your concrete > will come spilling out the bottom [ don't ask my > how I know this!] > Actually regardless how you do it.. it would be > worth adding a couple concrete nails at the bottom > to make sure it doesn't float.. a non-tapered > colum form could float also.. > > Jarrett Johnson.. [wondering how desperate Finn is > to use/ my numbers now... :-) ] > > > > > > > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Finn Lassen" > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 9:40 PM > Subject: [FlyRotary] OT: Concrete forms > > > > This is only remotely related to rotaries (home > > of my future > > rotary-powered RV-4) so please reply off-list. > > > > After having worked for three weekends putting > > up block and only having > > done 1 1/2 corners out of 3 so far, I'm > > seriously considering building > > forms and having the 9 16x16" columns poured > > rather that building them > > up with 16x16" column blocks. > > > > If anybody here on the list are familiar with > > making concrete forms, I > > sure could use some advice. > > Columns will be 8' 8" tall and will be > > supporting 10' long 8x8" lintels > > with a row of lintel blocks on top. > > > > How thick does the plywood have to be to handle > > a 8'8" tall 16x16" > > column of concrete? > > > > I'm considering using my future 2x4 or 2x6 frame > > wall studs to form the > > outside corners of the forms - two along each > > corner of the form screwed > > together (8 per form). > > > > Another issue is the option of tapering the > > columns: 16x16 at bottom > > tapering to 8x16" at top. In my mind that would > > not change the structual > > strength of the columns; would save concrete > > (25%) and possibly require > > less hefty plywood. > > > > I sure could use some advice on both counts. > > > > Keywords here are "cheaper" and "easier". > > > > 16x16" column blocks are now $3.21 a piece - 13 > > per column. > > The extra concrete to replace one block is about > > $2.60 (or $1.95 if > > tapering the columns). > > So I'd mainly just be paying for the plywood > > for the forms - seems > > worthwhile compared to the work of "stacking" > > the 117 column blocks. > > Ideally the forms would also be able to support > > the lintels and lintel > > blocks so everything could be poured in one go. > > > > Finn > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > > http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.2/356 - > Release Date: 6/5/2006 > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ > -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ --0-423539661-1150165823=:827 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
George,

Would you be so kind as to come back from July and into June with the rest of us?

Mike

----- Original Message ----
From: george lendich <lendich@optusnet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 6:15:57 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: OT: Concrete forms

Finn,
I would use plywood forms secured at the corners, you also need bolts
through tubes at regular intervals throughout, with good sized washers under
those bolt heads. The tubes themselves act as spacers and could be secured
to the reinforcing bars so as to secure the form position however you would
also need to secure the base somehow so that it didn't move around as well
as some timber braces to maintain the top position.

If it were me I would do a metre at a time and use the  top tube holes after
the concrete has set, as the new bottom form holes.

Leave the top rough so as the new concrete has something to bite into - if
you use a concrete vibrator don't do it too much as the larger stones
migrate to the bottom and weaken the structure, just enough to get out any
cavities ( bubbles)i.e. half a minute. My figures ( by memory) indicate
about a ton per cubic metre.

George (down under)

> Finn, I have designed concrete forms in my day
> job, however they were of a different variety
> compared to what your doing.
> [Metal pre-cast forms for man holes, city sew
> systems and various "under Street" concrete
> structures]
>
> It would seem to me that your major problem is
> going to be hydraulic pressure at the bottom of
> the form.
> If concrete weigh's 150lb's per cubic foot 16" x
> 16" x 104"=26624/1728=15.4 cubic feet or 2311 lb's
> of concrete.
> Now if my numbers are right you should be dealing
> w/ 9.0 PSI pressure around the form at 1"
> elevation.
> I don't think just plywood is going to cut it..
> if you strapped the bottom circ. w/ 2 x 4  and
> then the following elevations
> [ all measured from Datum= bottom of colum]
>
> 3"
> 6"
> 9"
> 12"
> 15"
> 18"
> 21"
> 25"
> 29"
> 33"
> 37"
> 42"
> 47"
> 52"
> 58"
> 64"
> 72"
> 82"
> 104"
>
> All elevations should be strapped by a 2 x 4  [23"
> lng + 2x plywood thickness]around the circ. [2"
> high x 4" out from the form]
>
> These numbers should keep all loads below 500lb's
> force on the 2x4 strapping at each elevation[at
> each side].  Hydaulic pressure isn't my strong
> suite [ I'm a draftsman not an engineer]
> Hopefully someone will look this over and tell me
> I'm an idiot.. but.. If I was going to do it..
> this is how I'd go about it....
> Also worth noting, if you do taper tha colum, make
> sure you secure the bottom of it to the floor or
> it will float off.. and all your concrete
> will come spilling out the bottom [ don't ask my
> how I know this!]
> Actually regardless how you do it.. it would be
> worth adding a couple concrete nails at the bottom
> to make sure it doesn't float.. a non-tapered
> colum form could float also..
>
> Jarrett Johnson.. [wondering how desperate Finn is
> to use/ my numbers now... :-)  ]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---- Original Message -----
> From: "Finn Lassen" <finn.lassen@verizon.net>
> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft"
> <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 9:40 PM
> Subject: [FlyRotary] OT: Concrete forms
>
>
> > This is only remotely related to rotaries (home
> > of my future
> > rotary-powered RV-4) so please reply off-list.
> >
> > After having worked for three weekends putting
> > up block and only having
> > done 1 1/2 corners out of 3 so far, I'm
> > seriously considering building
> > forms and having the 9 16x16" columns poured
> > rather that building them
> > up with 16x16" column blocks.
> >
> > If anybody here on the list are familiar with
> > making concrete forms, I
> > sure could use some advice.
> > Columns will be 8' 8" tall and will be
> > supporting 10' long 8x8" lintels
> > with a row of lintel blocks on top.
> >
> > How thick does the plywood have to be to handle
> > a 8'8" tall 16x16"
> > column of concrete?
> >
> > I'm considering using my future 2x4 or 2x6 frame
> > wall studs to form the
> > outside corners of the forms - two along each
> > corner of the form screwed
> > together (8 per form).
> >
> > Another issue is the option of tapering the
> > columns: 16x16 at bottom
> > tapering to 8x16" at top. In my mind that would
> > not change the structual
> > strength of the columns; would save concrete
> > (25%) and possibly require
> > less hefty plywood.
> >
> > I sure could use some advice on both counts.
> >
> > Keywords here are "cheaper" and "easier".
> >
> > 16x16" column blocks are now $3.21 a piece - 13
> > per column.
> > The extra concrete to replace one block is about
> > $2.60 (or  $1.95 if
> > tapering the columns).
> > So I'd mainly just be paying  for the plywood
> > for the forms - seems
> > worthwhile compared to the work of "stacking"
> > the 117 column blocks.
> > Ideally the forms would also be able to support
> > the lintels and lintel
> > blocks so everything could be poured in one go.
> >
> > Finn
> >
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>
>
> > --
> > Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and UnSub:
> > http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
> >
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.2/356 -
> Release Date: 6/5/2006
>
>
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>



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