X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ispmxmta09-srv.alltel.net ([166.102.165.170] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.9) with ESMTP id 1148452 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:35:44 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=166.102.165.170; envelope-from=trpeters@alltel.net Received: from ispmxaamta05-gx.alltel.net ([69.40.76.32]) by ispmxmta09-srv.alltel.net with ESMTP id <20060610023458.MLHQ16845.ispmxmta09-srv.alltel.net@ispmxaamta05-gx.alltel.net> for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 21:34:58 -0500 Received: from 3F8JX51SHAW ([69.40.76.32]) by ispmxaamta05-gx.alltel.net with SMTP id <20060610023457.XVQF19332.ispmxaamta05-gx.alltel.net@3F8JX51SHAW> for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 21:34:57 -0500 Message-ID: <003001c68c36$7c60d040$6400a8c0@shaw.shawinc.com> From: "Timothy Peters" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Ignition Failure Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 22:35:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01C68C14.F51E5C40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C68C14.F51E5C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageAll, I'm going to risk the wrath of the anti-cross posters and post here what = I read on one of the Fly Subaru lists. I was hoping someone else here = might have caught it and raised the issue with the group, but I haven't = seen anything yet. (Although I do run perpetually 2 days behind.) It = was weighing too heavily on my mind to let it pass. It may help to know that I have not made a final decision about what = type of engine I am going to use, so I monitor several different mailing = lists... John Slade has told me I don't even need to worry about an = engine until I get an airframe built... or even decide which airframe to = build. ;-) I'm primarily looking at the Cozy IV and the design changes I'm = considering involve engine type. I will be deciding on an engine before = building. =20 So far I'm thinking Bruce T. built 13B turbo-equalized with RWS redrive = and EC2. (I'm also kicking around a H6 turbo Subie engine). But this raises a question about fault tolerance, specifically how = non-OEM engine controllers handle such things as a failed crank sensor. = I did get irritated with the rounds of self congratulatory rhetoric and = Darwin jokes that passed back and forth after this post. One following = post even boasted that, unlike this silly bloke, he used bullet proof GM = coils. To his credit, the original poster did return that the suspected = failed coils were GM coils. Well, time to separate the facts from the hot air... where do we stand = with sensor faults and how do they affect the RWS controller verses an = OEM controller? Couple weeks ago one of the guys had ignition failure on his conversion. There were so many contributing causes, so much to be learned by his experience. Fortunately he and his plane survived, although we should = all pretend it didn't turn out so well. I've been harping a few years now on the need for the custom ignition systems to handle sensor faults better. This failure would have been lower risk if he had such a system. So he was flying along when his engine started crapping out. Wisely he took precautionary landing. Recently there were newsgroup discussions about a certain brand of coil giving out from heat. So he assumed that was what he was experiencing. = If I have the details correct, he fired his plane up after cool down. It sounded ok, so he proceeded to depart. Fortunately he lucked out again. His engine crapped out on takeoff run. He finally had to push it off the runway. The direct cause? He lost his crank sensor. The wire connector was corroded. Reportedly he adapted OEM plug to the sensor and used RTV as a strain relief. I never knew this but I'm told RTV cures using a chemical that can corrode electrical contacts. Coupled with the fact that he = flies in corrosive part of country (humid Florida).=20 So here are all the causes. I attach significance to them all. Many of them we are all vulnerable to. 1) Custom wiring of critical component using unproven method (RTV). He had good intentions, but inadvertently caused a problem. This is very common failure scenario. All custom work is high risk. 2) Making assumptions when diagnosing fault. No doubt this failure could be difficult to diagnose. But we all have tendency to jump to conclusions, hope for the best, etc. We are all influenced the most recent discussions. We are at strange airport and want to get back home. 3) Use of unintelligent custom ignition system. Your car in this = scenario would have immediately turned on the check engine light and the code for "bad crank sensor" would be sent. This ignition system boasts dual computer and all that, yet is vulnerable to crank sensor. I sure want to encourage these suppliers to improve fault handling.=20 4) Using marginal components. If he wasn't using known marginal coils, = he would not have jumped to that false conclusion. 5) No discussion of contributing causes. We don't learn from these situations if we don't pursue the other causes.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Russell Duffy=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 9:22 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Shoe Goo Research, Was Re: Protecting splices DAMHIKT. > > OK, I give up. What does it mean? :) Don't Ask Me How I Know This Pretty soon, "acronym" will be an official language, without any words = :-) BTW, a belated congrats to Jason on his first flight, Joe on his = continued testing, and a big thanks to John for getting the hell out of = my state :-) Cheers, Rusty (Kolb on Ebay as I type) ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C68C14.F51E5C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
All,
 
I'm going to risk the wrath of the = anti-cross=20 posters and post here what I read on one of the Fly = Subaru=20 lists.  I was hoping someone else here might have caught it and = raised the=20 issue with the group, but I haven't seen anything yet. (Although I do = run=20 perpetually 2 days behind.)  It was weighing too heavily on my mind = to let=20 it pass.
 
It may help to know that I have not = made a final=20 decision about what type of engine I am going to use, so I monitor = several=20 different mailing lists...  John Slade has told me I don't even = need to=20 worry about an engine until I get an airframe built... or even = decide=20 which airframe to build. ;-)
 
I'm primarily looking at the Cozy = IV and the=20 design changes I'm considering involve engine type.  I will be = deciding on an engine before building. 
 
So far I'm thinking Bruce T. built=20 13B turbo-equalized with RWS redrive and EC2.  (I'm also = kicking=20 around a H6 turbo Subie engine).
 
But this raises a question about fault = tolerance,=20 specifically how non-OEM engine controllers handle such things as a = failed crank=20 sensor. 
 
I did get irritated with the rounds of = self=20 congratulatory rhetoric and Darwin jokes that passed back and forth = after this=20 post.  One following post even boasted that, unlike this silly = bloke, he=20 used bullet proof GM coils.  To his credit, the original poster=20 did return that the suspected failed coils were GM = coils.
 
Well, time to separate the facts from = the hot=20 air...  where do we stand with sensor faults and how do they affect = the RWS=20 controller verses an OEM controller?
 
Couple weeks ago one of the = guys had=20 ignition failure on his conversion.
There were so many contributing = causes,=20 so much to be learned by his
experience. Fortunately he and his plane = survived, although we should all
pretend it didn't turn out so=20 well.

I've been harping a few years now on the need for the = custom=20 ignition
systems to handle sensor faults better. This failure would = have=20 been
lower risk if he had such a system. So he was flying along when=20 his
engine started crapping out. Wisely he took precautionary=20 landing.
Recently there were newsgroup discussions about a certain = brand of=20 coil
giving out from heat. So he assumed that was what he was = experiencing.=20 If
I have the details correct, he fired his plane up after cool down. = It
sounded ok, so he proceeded to depart. Fortunately he lucked out=20 again.
His engine crapped out on takeoff run. He finally had to push = it off=20 the
runway.

The direct cause? He lost his crank sensor. The = wire=20 connector was
corroded. Reportedly he adapted OEM plug to the sensor = and used=20 RTV as a
strain relief. I never knew this but I'm told RTV cures = using a=20 chemical
that can corrode electrical contacts. Coupled with the fact = that he=20 flies
in corrosive part of country (humid Florida).

So here = are all=20 the causes. I attach significance to them all. Many of
them we are = all=20 vulnerable to.

1) Custom wiring of critical component using = unproven=20 method (RTV). He
had good intentions, but inadvertently caused a = problem.=20 This is very
common failure scenario. All custom work is high = risk.

2)=20 Making assumptions when diagnosing fault. No doubt this failure = could
be=20 difficult to diagnose. But we all have tendency to jump = to
conclusions, hope=20 for the best, etc. We are all influenced the most
recent discussions. = We are=20 at strange airport and want to get back home.

3) Use of = unintelligent=20 custom ignition system. Your car in this scenario
would have = immediately=20 turned on the check engine light and the code for
"bad crank sensor" = would be=20 sent. This ignition system boasts dual
computer and all that, yet is=20 vulnerable to crank sensor. I sure want to
encourage these suppliers = to=20 improve fault handling.

4) Using marginal components. If he = wasn't using=20 known marginal coils, he
would not have jumped to that false=20 conclusion.

5) No discussion of contributing causes. We don't = learn from=20 these
situations if we don't pursue the other causes. =
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Russell=20 Duffy
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 = 9:22 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Shoe = Goo=20 Research, Was Re: Protecting splices

 DAMHIKT.
>
>
OK, I give = up.  What=20 does it mean? :)

Don't = Ask Me How I=20 Know This
 
Pretty = soon, "acronym"=20 will be an official language, without any words = :-)
 
BTW, a = belated=20 congrats to Jason on his first flight, Joe on his continued testing, = and a big=20 thanks to John for getting the hell out of my state = :-)
 
Cheers,
Rusty = (Kolb on Ebay as=20 I type)




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