X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-04.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.103] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.9) with ESMTP id 1145811 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:50:33 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.103; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-111-186.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.111.186]) by ms-smtp-04.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k583njpB001514 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 23:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000901c68aae$9d192050$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Gasoline Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 23:49:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C68A8D.15BD7F00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C68A8D.15BD7F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Barry, Thanks for the succinct summary of the article. Engines stop if they = try to run on a mixture too rich in water and may seize if a 2 stroke. = Glider time is glider time {:>). Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Barry Gardner=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 10:33 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water in Gasoline Ed, I read the article but it didn't give me much pause.=20 They start with the fact that gasoline with water is a problem to = engines because they stop when they try to burn water. Okay, so far, so = good. Then they point out that MBTE oxygenated gas doesn't absorb very = much water. In case of water contamination, see problem one. Ethanol and water absorb 3.8 teaspoons per gallon without a problem. = So they point out that ethanol-oxygenated gasoline is actually more = tolerant of water and, therefore, less likely to cause problems for = minor contamination. The glitch comes if one has more water than that. Then phase = separation occurs and the excess water starts to absorb ethanol out of = the gasoline. Then four-stroke motors have problem number one (i.e. not = running). But for two-stroke engines, the water-ethanol mix can displace the = gas-oil mixture THAT LUBES THE ENGINE. That's why they remark that the = effects on two-strokes can be bad--inadequate lube. My take is: a) this effect is only present for gasoline that's so contaminated = that the ethanol can't absorb all the water, b) the difference between four-strokes and two-strokes is that = four-strokes quit running whereas two-strokes quit running and can = seize, and c) if you left your OEM apex seal lube in place instead of going to = just oil-fuel mix in your gas tank, you still might be okay. More reason = to install Richard Sohn's little lube pump reservoir and just replace = those goofy oil injection nylon lines with stainless ones. In note b above, if both four-strokes and two-strokes both quit in the = case of gross water contamination, it probably feels the same to you = experienced glider pilots. But if you have really displaced all your = lube through water contamination, then two-strokers get to rebuild the = engine too. That's bad but not unexpected when one runs out of lube, no = matter how it's delivered to the engine. Barry Gardner Wheaton, IL ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 7:37 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Water in Gasoline I ran across this interesting article on the effects of water in = gasoline and in combination with alcohol could have on engines. = Possibly indicates that MoGas with Alcohol might be a potentially very = bad combination for 2 stroke engines in particular. But, read for = yourself if interested. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C68A8D.15BD7F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Barry,
 
Thanks for the succinct summary of the = article. =20 Engines stop if they try to run on a mixture too rich in water and may = seize if=20 a 2 stroke.  Glider time is glider time {:>).
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Barry=20 Gardner
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 = 10:33=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water = in=20 Gasoline

Ed,
 
I read the article but it didn't give = me much=20 pause.
 
They start with the fact that = gasoline with water=20 is a problem to engines because they stop when they try to burn water. = Okay,=20 so far, so good. Then they point out that MBTE oxygenated gas doesn't = absorb=20 very much water. In case of water contamination, see problem = one.
 
Ethanol and water absorb 3.8 = teaspoons per gallon=20 without a problem. So they point out that ethanol-oxygenated gasoline = is=20 actually more tolerant of water and, therefore, less likely to cause = problems=20 for minor contamination.
 
The glitch comes if one has more = water than that.=20 Then phase separation occurs and the excess water starts to absorb = ethanol out=20 of the gasoline. Then four-stroke motors have problem number = one=20 (i.e. not running).
 
But for two-stroke engines, the = water-ethanol mix=20 can displace the gas-oil mixture THAT LUBES THE ENGINE. That's why = they remark=20 that the effects on two-strokes can be bad--inadequate = lube.
 
My take is:
a) this effect is only present for = gasoline=20 that's so contaminated that the ethanol can't absorb all the=20 water,
b) the difference between = four-strokes and=20 two-strokes is that four-strokes quit running whereas two-strokes = quit=20 running and can seize, and
c) if you left your OEM apex seal = lube in place=20 instead of going to just oil-fuel mix in your gas tank, you still = might be=20 okay. More reason to install Richard Sohn's little lube pump=20 reservoir and just replace those goofy oil injection nylon lines = with=20 stainless ones.
 
In note b above, if both four-strokes = and=20 two-strokes both quit in the case of gross water contamination, it = probably=20 feels the same to you experienced glider pilots. But if you have = really=20 displaced all your lube through water contamination, then two-strokers = get to=20 rebuild the engine too. That's bad but not unexpected when one runs = out of=20 lube, no matter how it's delivered to the engine.
 
Barry Gardner
Wheaton, IL
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, = 2006 7:37=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Water in = Gasoline

I ran across this interesting article on the = effects=20 of water in gasoline and in combination with alcohol could have on=20 engines.  Possibly indicates that MoGas with Alcohol might be a = potentially very bad combination for 2 stroke engines in = particular. =20 But, read for yourself if interested.
 
Ed
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com

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Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive = and=20 UnSub:  =20 = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
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