X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.206] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.9) with ESMTP id 1145779 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 22:34:22 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.233.162.206; envelope-from=barrygardner@gmail.com Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id x7so312788nzc for ; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:33:36 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:from:to:references:subject:date:mime-version:content-type:x-priority:x-msmail-priority:x-mailer:x-mimeole; b=THO+/ePOtJW8uuVlwnfm2pzaWK1G8wR5lLDZEGyWkXNTvpHKxAxIUG66zHN8wcTtjpdYLnTWL8NFXLNOjYO2a1kybM53TpcQDMUWwhbUVmmQ25tNDEEnV3rPmJoonLbHRn56exIJV6gAlHTPK5knK7geDGlzOuYe24Jykq4/m2U= Received: by 10.36.250.79 with SMTP id x79mr1653005nzh; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from dellc400 ( [75.4.141.51]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 5sm2035080nzk.2006.06.07.19.33.34; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <138701c68aa3$ee4e77a0$6601a8c0@dellc400> From: "Barry Gardner" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Water in Gasoline Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 21:33:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1384_01C68A7A.045AA390" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1384_01C68A7A.045AA390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, I read the article but it didn't give me much pause.=20 They start with the fact that gasoline with water is a problem to = engines because they stop when they try to burn water. Okay, so far, so = good. Then they point out that MBTE oxygenated gas doesn't absorb very = much water. In case of water contamination, see problem one. Ethanol and water absorb 3.8 teaspoons per gallon without a problem. So = they point out that ethanol-oxygenated gasoline is actually more = tolerant of water and, therefore, less likely to cause problems for = minor contamination. The glitch comes if one has more water than that. Then phase separation = occurs and the excess water starts to absorb ethanol out of the = gasoline. Then four-stroke motors have problem number one (i.e. not = running). But for two-stroke engines, the water-ethanol mix can displace the = gas-oil mixture THAT LUBES THE ENGINE. That's why they remark that the = effects on two-strokes can be bad--inadequate lube. My take is: a) this effect is only present for gasoline that's so contaminated that = the ethanol can't absorb all the water, b) the difference between four-strokes and two-strokes is that = four-strokes quit running whereas two-strokes quit running and can = seize, and c) if you left your OEM apex seal lube in place instead of going to just = oil-fuel mix in your gas tank, you still might be okay. More reason to = install Richard Sohn's little lube pump reservoir and just replace those = goofy oil injection nylon lines with stainless ones. In note b above, if both four-strokes and two-strokes both quit in the = case of gross water contamination, it probably feels the same to you = experienced glider pilots. But if you have really displaced all your = lube through water contamination, then two-strokers get to rebuild the = engine too. That's bad but not unexpected when one runs out of lube, no = matter how it's delivered to the engine. Barry Gardner Wheaton, IL ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 7:37 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Water in Gasoline I ran across this interesting article on the effects of water in = gasoline and in combination with alcohol could have on engines. = Possibly indicates that MoGas with Alcohol might be a potentially very = bad combination for 2 stroke engines in particular. But, read for = yourself if interested. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ------=_NextPart_000_1384_01C68A7A.045AA390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed,
 
I read the article but it didn't give = me much=20 pause.
 
They start with the fact that gasoline = with water=20 is a problem to engines because they stop when they try to burn water. = Okay, so=20 far, so good. Then they point out that MBTE oxygenated gas doesn't = absorb very=20 much water. In case of water contamination, see problem = one.
 
Ethanol and water absorb 3.8 teaspoons = per gallon=20 without a problem. So they point out that ethanol-oxygenated gasoline is = actually more tolerant of water and, therefore, less likely to cause = problems=20 for minor contamination.
 
The glitch comes if one has more water = than that.=20 Then phase separation occurs and the excess water starts to absorb = ethanol out=20 of the gasoline. Then four-stroke motors have problem number = one (i.e.=20 not running).
 
But for two-stroke engines, the = water-ethanol mix=20 can displace the gas-oil mixture THAT LUBES THE ENGINE. That's why they = remark=20 that the effects on two-strokes can be bad--inadequate = lube.
 
My take is:
a) this effect is only present for = gasoline that's=20 so contaminated that the ethanol can't absorb all the = water,
b) the difference between four-strokes = and=20 two-strokes is that four-strokes quit running whereas two-strokes = quit=20 running and can seize, and
c) if you left your OEM apex seal lube = in place=20 instead of going to just oil-fuel mix in your gas tank, you still might = be okay.=20 More reason to install Richard Sohn's little lube pump = reservoir and just=20 replace those goofy oil injection nylon lines with stainless = ones.
 
In note b above, if both four-strokes = and=20 two-strokes both quit in the case of gross water contamination, it = probably=20 feels the same to you experienced glider pilots. But if you have really=20 displaced all your lube through water contamination, then two-strokers = get to=20 rebuild the engine too. That's bad but not unexpected when one runs out = of lube,=20 no matter how it's delivered to the engine.
 
Barry Gardner
Wheaton, IL
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 = 7:37=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Water in=20 Gasoline

I ran across this interesting article on the = effects of=20 water in gasoline and in combination with alcohol could have on = engines. =20 Possibly indicates that MoGas with Alcohol might be a potentially very = bad=20 combination for 2 stroke engines in particular.  But, read for = yourself=20 if interested.
 
Ed
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary = Powered
Matthews,=20 NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and=20 UnSub:  =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
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