X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from zproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.162.203] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 1036227 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 13:00:48 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.233.162.203; envelope-from=barrygardner@gmail.com Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id l1so439051nzf for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:00:04 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:from:to:references:subject:date:mime-version:content-type:x-priority:x-msmail-priority:x-mailer:x-mimeole; b=r00/rek7MspeA39Me90vDSAvOcRWqcY4d++s+/sjDWbHM/dgMdOrvaJopUX0z42bZ5W40Pz/6JQJqQ0y3YDOw5LkD4H9RYO5tePEjaBT1Cepz2WyR41KFrOpRsl0u2ZKEIYwlNkOjcEARpBR6dBYJA3sR7wkcxo9WVMUkvceDUI= Received: by 10.64.96.20 with SMTP id t20mr12670qbb; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:00:04 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from dellc400 ( [75.4.73.65]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id a29sm556717qbd.2006.03.16.10.00.01; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:00:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <022801c64923$6d7205f0$6401a8c0@dellc400> From: "Barry Gardner" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: installed cost of rotary Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:59:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0221_01C648F1.1E49A960" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2670 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0221_01C648F1.1E49A960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageRusty,=20 Bravo for this reply! Very complete answer.=20 I'd come to watch that 150 hour Lyclone install sometime and I'd bring = the beer! I'll trust you that it could happen but don't know enough = about it myself.=20 Excellent point about resale, which is one of the things I've wrestled = with. I think all of us rotary heads keep hoping to develop a standard = installation package that won't take 1500 hours to do. I keep waiting = for one of these other guys to do it and am particularly watching Bulent = Aliev, John Slade, and Steve Brooks for tips. My plane's still in pieces = so I've got some time. Best of luck with that Lyclone and thanks for contributing your = experience to our discussions. Barry ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Russell Duffy=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: installed cost of rotary Rusty, John Dyke keeps telling us builders that a rotary installation will cost more than a Lycoming. You're the only person I know that = has written checks for both in such a short time, and recently. So all told, how would you compare the cost? How about if you had to figure = in your time at shop rates? Hi Ernest, This is indeed a complicated question, and not something that can be = answered universally. Will a rotary cost more to install? It can if = you want it to (Powersport, Mistral), but for most, it will not cost = more initially. Not only are there multiple option that can change the = cost of the package, but even "cost" itself means something different to = everyone. =20 One primary variable is resale. If you had two identical RV-8's, = except for the engine, the one with the new Lyclone would sell for about = $90k, and the new rotary would sell for maybe $60-70k, and only to a = very limited market. Since I seem to go through projects pretty = quickly, I have to consider this as part of the cost of the engine = choice. Others, Ed for example, are perfectly content to own one = airplane forever, so it's not fair to count resale in his case. Some = plane have terrible resale anyway, so maybe the engine won't make that = much difference. Bottom line is that you have to look at the market for = your particularly plane, and then decide if it even matters.=20 Another variable is whether you look at only the initial cost, or = total cost of the time you own the plane. How many people have gone = through several engines before a new Lyclone would even need a top = overhaul? How much money have most folks spent reworking their = installation, different props, redrives, cooling systems, intakes, etc. = I think you have to look at the overall ownership, not just installed = cost. =20 Barry brought up some valid points about extra costs for the Lyclones. = It ain't just the engine. My RV-8 engine was $21,600 including = shipping, customs, etc. The FWF kit contains everything (and I DO mean = everything) FWF except the mount, prop, and spinner. In my case, this = was about $4300, which included a new prop governor. The Blended = airfoil Hartzell is $5800. That's a total of $31,700. My best guess = is that a new Renesis, with a CS prop would cost at least $20k, and = that's only the first engine :-) Your definition of "cost", and your = spin on the calculations will determine whether this is a good value for = you :-) I do believe Barry overstated the difficulty of installing the = Lycoming a bit though, particularly for something as refined as the = Van's RV kits. I would bet I can do the total engine install on the = RV-8 in 150 hours. A rotary would be at least 1500 hours. I don't tend = to count the cost of my time, but if I did, the rotary wouldn't look so = hot :-)=20 To answer the question directly, I would estimate that I spent = somewhere between $15k to $20k on the RV-3 engine project. I made Rich = promise never to tell me what all the receipts add up to :-) Overall, = I probably lost about $10k on the whole RV-3 project. To make a long answer even longer, I don't regret the RV-3 rotary = project at all. It was something I've wanted to do for as long as I've = been building planes, and the idea wasn't going way on it's own. = Fortunately, I put a Lycoming in the original RV-8, so I made more than = enough money when it sold to cover the loss on the RV-3. Since RV-3's = have such a low resale anyway, it was a pretty good choice for the = experiment. I was pretty tempted to put a rotary in the RV-8, but in = the end, I think the Lyclone is a better choice "for me". =20 A final note- the question was about money, NOT which engine is = better. If you feel the rotary is that much better than a Lycoming, = then you can rationalize any cost you want. Also note that "alternate = engine" can be substituted for "rotary" for this entire message. =20 Cheers, Rusty (probably could have mounted my Lyclone in the time it took to = type this ) =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0221_01C648F1.1E49A960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Rusty,
 
Bravo for this reply! Very complete = answer.=20
 
I'd come to watch that 150 hour Lyclone = install=20 sometime and I'd bring the beer! I'll trust you that it could happen but = don't=20 know enough about it myself.
 
Excellent point about resale, which is = one of the=20 things I've wrestled with.
 
I think all of us rotary heads keep = hoping to=20 develop a standard installation package that won't take 1500 hours to = do. I keep=20 waiting for one of these other guys to do it and am particularly = watching Bulent=20 Aliev, John Slade, and Steve Brooks for tips. My plane's still in pieces = so I've=20 got some time.
 
Best of luck with that Lyclone and = thanks for=20 contributing your experience to our discussions.
 
Barry
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Russell=20 Duffy
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 = 11:41=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = installed cost=20 of rotary

Rusty, John Dyke keeps telling us builders that a = rotary=20 installation
will cost more than a Lycoming.  You're the only = person I=20 know that has
written checks for both in such a short time, and=20 recently.  So all
told, how would you compare the cost?  = How=20 about if you had to figure in
your time at shop rates?

Hi Ernest,

This is indeed a=20 complicated question, and not something that can be answered=20 universally.  Will = a rotary=20 cost more to install?  It can if you want it to (Powersport, = Mistral),=20 but for most, it will not cost more initially.   = Not only are there multiple option that = can change=20 the cost of the package, but even "cost" itself means something = different to=20 everyone. 
 
One primary variable is = resale.  If=20 you had two identical RV-8's, except for the engine, the one with the = new=20 Lyclone would sell for about $90k, and the new rotary would sell for = maybe=20 $60-70k, and only to a very limited market.  Since I seem to = go=20 through projects pretty quickly, I have to consider this as = part of=20 the cost of the engine choice.  Others, Ed for example, are = perfectly=20 content to own one airplane forever, so it's not fair to count resale = in his=20 case.   Some plane have terrible resale anyway, so maybe the = engine=20 won't make that much difference.  Bottom line is that you have to = look at=20 the market for your particularly plane, and then decide if it even = matters.=20
 
Another variable is = whether you look=20 at only the initial cost, or total cost of the time you own the=20 plane.  How many people have gone through several = engines=20 before a new Lyclone would even need a top overhaul?  How much = money have=20 most folks spent reworking their installation, different props, = redrives,=20 cooling systems, intakes, etc.   I think you have to = look at=20 the overall ownership, not just installed = cost.  
 
Barry brought up some = valid points=20 about extra costs for the Lyclones.  It ain't just the = engine.  My=20 RV-8 engine was $21,600 including shipping, customs, etc.  The = FWF kit=20 contains everything (and I DO mean everything) FWF except the mount, = prop, and=20 spinner.  In my case, this was about $4300, which = included a=20 new prop governor.  The Blended airfoil Hartzell is=20 $5800.  That's a total of $31,700.   My best guess is = that a=20 new Renesis, with a CS prop would cost at least $20k, and that's = only the=20 first engine :-)  Your definition of "cost", and your spin on the = calculations will determine whether this is a good value for you=20 :-)
 
I do believe = Barry overstated the=20 difficulty of installing the Lycoming a bit though, particularly for = something=20 as refined as the Van's RV kits.  I would bet I can do the = total=20 engine install on the RV-8 in 150 hours.  A rotary would be at = least 1500=20 hours.  I don't tend to count the cost of my time, but if I = did, the=20 rotary wouldn't look so hot :-) 
 
To answer the question = directly, I would=20 estimate that I spent somewhere between $15k to $20k on the RV-3=20 engine project.  I made Rich promise never to tell me = what all=20 the receipts add up to :-)   Overall, I probably lost about = $10k on=20 the whole RV-3 project.
 
To make a long answer even = longer, I=20 don't regret the RV-3 rotary project at all.  It was = something I've=20 wanted to do for as long as I've been building planes, and the = idea=20 wasn't going way on it's own.  Fortunately, I put a Lycoming = in the=20 original RV-8, so I made more than enough money when it sold to = cover the=20 loss on the RV-3.   Since RV-3's have such a low resale = anyway, it=20 was a pretty good choice for the experiment.  I was pretty = tempted=20 to put a rotary in the RV-8, but in the end, I think the Lyclone is a = better=20 choice "for me".   
 
A final note- the question was = about=20 money, NOT which engine is better.  If you feel the rotary = is that=20 much better than a Lycoming, then you can rationalize any = cost you=20 want.   Also note that "alternate engine" can = be substituted=20 for "rotary" for this entire message.  
 
Cheers,
Rusty (probably could have = mounted my=20 Lyclone in the time it took to type this=20 <g>)    
 
 =20
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