X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.200] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 1036212 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:41:46 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.233.184.200; envelope-from=russell.duffy@gmail.com Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so366862wra for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:41:02 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type:x-priority:x-msmail-priority:x-mailer:x-mimeole:importance:in-reply-to; b=s6o7n222ya1Nz7KqsUyzFoSNJdYTQrPBJ1BuQ2CajhKd9n7W0Yg+H3sO6Frr9lemFyratRjwNUFB1K0ujcQruaeIs6FnZBceD4rcDdJd0NruHVIo7LvPVEhNcZS/8RS4PeBxWqSedmjMh4MCu6XUdfxuNO52zlzmhWB4oSzlIaQ= Received: by 10.54.145.8 with SMTP id s8mr768438wrd; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:41:02 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from rd ( [65.6.194.9]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id g7sm171670wra.2006.03.16.09.41.01; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:41:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Russell Duffy" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: installed cost of rotary Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:41:01 -0600 Message-ID: <00bc01c64920$caf36e10$6101a8c0@rd> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BD_01C648EE.8058FE10" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01C648EE.8058FE10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rusty, John Dyke keeps telling us builders that a rotary installation will cost more than a Lycoming. You're the only person I know that has written checks for both in such a short time, and recently. So all told, how would you compare the cost? How about if you had to figure in your time at shop rates? Hi Ernest, This is indeed a complicated question, and not something that can be answered universally. Will a rotary cost more to install? It can if = you want it to (Powersport, Mistral), but for most, it will not cost more initially. Not only are there multiple option that can change the cost = of the package, but even "cost" itself means something different to = everyone. =20 =20 One primary variable is resale. If you had two identical RV-8's, except = for the engine, the one with the new Lyclone would sell for about $90k, and = the new rotary would sell for maybe $60-70k, and only to a very limited = market. Since I seem to go through projects pretty quickly, I have to consider = this as part of the cost of the engine choice. Others, Ed for example, are perfectly content to own one airplane forever, so it's not fair to count resale in his case. Some plane have terrible resale anyway, so maybe = the engine won't make that much difference. Bottom line is that you have to look at the market for your particularly plane, and then decide if it = even matters.=20 =20 Another variable is whether you look at only the initial cost, or total = cost of the time you own the plane. How many people have gone through = several engines before a new Lyclone would even need a top overhaul? How much = money have most folks spent reworking their installation, different props, redrives, cooling systems, intakes, etc. I think you have to look at = the overall ownership, not just installed cost. =20 =20 Barry brought up some valid points about extra costs for the Lyclones. = It ain't just the engine. My RV-8 engine was $21,600 including shipping, customs, etc. The FWF kit contains everything (and I DO mean = everything) FWF except the mount, prop, and spinner. In my case, this was about = $4300, which included a new prop governor. The Blended airfoil Hartzell is = $5800. That's a total of $31,700. My best guess is that a new Renesis, with a = CS prop would cost at least $20k, and that's only the first engine :-) = Your definition of "cost", and your spin on the calculations will determine whether this is a good value for you :-) =20 I do believe Barry overstated the difficulty of installing the Lycoming = a bit though, particularly for something as refined as the Van's RV kits. = I would bet I can do the total engine install on the RV-8 in 150 hours. A rotary would be at least 1500 hours. I don't tend to count the cost of = my time, but if I did, the rotary wouldn't look so hot :-)=20 =20 To answer the question directly, I would estimate that I spent somewhere between $15k to $20k on the RV-3 engine project. I made Rich promise = never to tell me what all the receipts add up to :-) Overall, I probably = lost about $10k on the whole RV-3 project. =20 To make a long answer even longer, I don't regret the RV-3 rotary = project at all. It was something I've wanted to do for as long as I've been = building planes, and the idea wasn't going way on it's own. Fortunately, I put a Lycoming in the original RV-8, so I made more than enough money when it = sold to cover the loss on the RV-3. Since RV-3's have such a low resale = anyway, it was a pretty good choice for the experiment. I was pretty tempted to = put a rotary in the RV-8, but in the end, I think the Lyclone is a better = choice "for me". =20 =20 A final note- the question was about money, NOT which engine is better. = If you feel the rotary is that much better than a Lycoming, then you can rationalize any cost you want. Also note that "alternate engine" can = be substituted for "rotary" for this entire message. =20 =20 Cheers, Rusty (probably could have mounted my Lyclone in the time it took to = type this ) =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01C648EE.8058FE10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

Rusty, John Dyke keeps telling us builders that a = rotary=20 installation
will cost more than a Lycoming.  You're the only = person I=20 know that has
written checks for both in such a short time, and=20 recently.  So all
told, how would you compare the cost?  = How about=20 if you had to figure in
your time at shop rates?

Hi Ernest,

This is indeed a = complicated question,=20 and not something that can be answered = universally.  Will a rotary cost more to install?  = It can if you=20 want it to (Powersport, Mistral), but for most, it will not cost more=20 initially.   Not = only are there=20 multiple option that can change the cost of the package, but even "cost" = itself=20 means something different to everyone. 
 
One primary variable is = resale.  If you=20 had two identical RV-8's, except for the engine, the one with the new = Lyclone=20 would sell for about $90k, and the new rotary would sell for maybe = $60-70k, and=20 only to a very limited market.  Since I seem to go through = projects=20 pretty quickly, I have to consider this as part of the cost of = the=20 engine choice.  Others, Ed for example, are perfectly content to = own one=20 airplane forever, so it's not fair to count resale in his = case.   Some=20 plane have terrible resale anyway, so maybe the engine won't make that = much=20 difference.  Bottom line is that you have to look at the market for = your=20 particularly plane, and then decide if it even matters.
 
Another variable is whether = you look at=20 only the initial cost, or total cost of the time you own the=20 plane.  How many people have gone through several engines = before=20 a new Lyclone would even need a top overhaul?  How much money have = most=20 folks spent reworking their installation, different props, redrives, = cooling=20 systems, intakes, etc.   I think you have to look at the = overall=20 ownership, not just installed cost.  
 
Barry brought up some valid = points=20 about extra costs for the Lyclones.  It ain't just the = engine.  My=20 RV-8 engine was $21,600 including shipping, customs, etc.  The FWF = kit=20 contains everything (and I DO mean everything) FWF except the mount, = prop, and=20 spinner.  In my case, this was about $4300, which = included a new=20 prop governor.  The Blended airfoil Hartzell is = $5800. =20 That's a total of $31,700.   My best guess is that a new = Renesis, with=20 a CS prop would cost at least $20k, and that's only the first = engine=20 :-)  Your definition of "cost", and your spin on the calculations = will=20 determine whether this is a good value for you :-)
 
I do believe = Barry overstated the=20 difficulty of installing the Lycoming a bit though, particularly for = something=20 as refined as the Van's RV kits.  I would bet I can do the = total=20 engine install on the RV-8 in 150 hours.  A rotary would be at = least 1500=20 hours.  I don't tend to count the cost of my time, but if I = did, the=20 rotary wouldn't look so hot :-) 
 
To answer the question directly, = I would=20 estimate that I spent somewhere between $15k to $20k on the RV-3=20 engine project.  I made Rich promise never to tell me = what all=20 the receipts add up to :-)   Overall, I probably lost about = $10k on=20 the whole RV-3 project.
 
To make a long answer even = longer, I=20 don't regret the RV-3 rotary project at all.  It was something = I've=20 wanted to do for as long as I've been building planes, and the idea = wasn't=20 going way on it's own.  Fortunately, I put a Lycoming in the = original=20 RV-8, so I made more than enough money when it sold to cover the = loss on=20 the RV-3.   Since RV-3's have such a low resale anyway, it was = a=20 pretty good choice for the experiment.  I was pretty tempted = to put a=20 rotary in the RV-8, but in the end, I think the Lyclone is a better = choice "for=20 me".   
 
A final note- the question was = about=20 money, NOT which engine is better.  If you feel the rotary is = that=20 much better than a Lycoming, then you can rationalize any cost = you=20 want.   Also note that "alternate engine" can = be substituted for=20 "rotary" for this entire message.  
 
Cheers,
Rusty (probably could have = mounted my=20 Lyclone in the time it took to type this=20 <g>)    
 
  =
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