X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [65.54.250.78] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 986038 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:41:34 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.250.78; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 08:37:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 4.171.114.9 by BAY115-DAV6.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:37:00 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.171.114.9] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine failures / Airfilters Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:36:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_014C_01C63224.1FD9D9A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0011.1703 Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:36:56 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Feb 2006 16:37:01.0052 (UTC) FILETIME=[0BA023C0:01C6324E] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_014C_01C63224.1FD9D9A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If we were talking about an automotive application I agree that it would = be folly to run sans-airfilter. And I qualify my non filtered operation = with the proviso that you must use care when taxiing under certain = conditions. The air is a lot cleaner as soon as you slip the surly = bonds. Flying or taxiing through a sand storm would of course be = disastrous without an air filter. Only one sample but my first engine (a well used 88 2nd gen) showed no = measurable wear (compared to when first installed) to rotor grooves, = rotor housings, side housings, or side seals after 856 flight hours. = The apex seals had a maximum of .012" of wear measured at height of = seal. This is the least wear I have seen when disassembling a used = engine. I've torn down about 12 so far, all used on cars except for = mine, not a big sample. Tracy ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bobby J. Hughes=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:50 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine failures, Rotary or otherwise To clarify the air filter issue. I seem to remember someone posting a = page from the mazda manual regarding apex seal tolerances after Ed's = failure and later confirmed the slot was out of spec. I remember the = manual said to check the air filter. Mazda seems to think running = without a filter or (dirty filter?) will cause rotor apex seal slots = wear. Is this correct? Bobby (not doubt I will now build a trailer test stand and run the engine = many hours before it ever goes on the plane) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Al Gietzen Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 1:13 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine failures, Rotary or otherwise Bill; With all due respect; I don't disagree with what you're saying here, = but I do take offense at you calling Tracy, myself, and others "idiots" = because we have chosen to run without an air filter. My intake is in = front of the prop and above the wing strake. Anyway, why climb on that = issue? There has not been a single aircraft incident that I am aware of = that has resulted from not using an air filter. Let's pick an issue = which has caused a failure. I won't argue that running without a filter may reduce the engine = life; and I may consider one later. And yes, the engine would = eventually fail; every engine will - filter or no filter - if you run it = long enough. Al (I guess it's past my bedtime) Rusty, and Group, I understand your comments Rusty, and think you are both right and = wrong. I believe it is easier, for most people, to be successful with a = standard aircraft engine. I DO NOT believe this is because the Lyc, = Conti, or whatever is inherently more reliable. I do believe that the = ancillaries are better developed for "conventional" aircraft engines.=20 Because we [FlyRotary or ACRE] are rotary enthusiasts we hear about = EVERY rotary problem. If we heard about every Lyc problem caused on a = daily basis we might never fly spam again! I am not trying to offer so = anecdote to soothe the rotary faithful, as all failures are just that, = failures. I would remind everyone that ALL Lyc installs in certified = aircraft now come with AIR FILTERS!=20 I'LL SAY THIS FLAT OUT, IF YOU DON'T RUN A FILTER YOU WILL HAVE A = FAILURE! I don't care if your running a conventional aircraft engine or = conversion. Running unfiltered is simple idiocy.=20 It should also be said that for Lycoming to be having crankshaft = failures, and a significant number of them to initiate an AD is not only = sad but smacks of reckless disregard. So saying that the aircooled = aircraft engine is super reliable is simply setting yourself up for a = fall. If you look at the statistics most of the engine failures are = "certified" engines simply because there are more of them!=20 ANY ENGINE properly maintained and not operated outside it's normal = limits will work just fine thank you, provided it is not a deficient = design to begin with. The rotary requires a GOOD water and oil cooling = system. If you aren't willing to work on that, stop now and don't hurt = the reputation of the rest of us and go buy a Lycoming. The rewards for = a GOOD installation are many but won't "just happen." As Tracy said you = must go in with the knowledge of the needed systems or you will fail. If = you do slipshod work, Rotary or Lycoming, YOU WILL FAIL. Someone put the = old saying on the site, "How do you eat an elephant?" "One bite at a = time!" This is the proper way of looking at the jobs needed to be = successful. You MUST do all the jobs. (eat every bite) And most = importantly you must do all the jobs well. Safety wire everything even = though it's a pain in the ass. If you can't do all the jobs yourself = it's no crime. Get HELP! Buy the redrive from Tracy. Or buy from = Mistral, or buy them from Marcotte. Build your system up and test it on = the ground. If you overheat your system on the ground don't assume it = will be better in the air! (It might be, but also might not be!) Plan = for an adequate sized radiator. That would be a MINIMUM of 2 cubic = inches pre HP, and that only if you have PERFECT ducting. (3 c.i. per HP = would be a safer bet) Don't expect you are the miracle guy that can = change physics for your own project. Rusty has brought up some good = points in pointing out that if you want to fly soonest buy conventional. = Bernie, you can probably rebuild your system from all new parts for less = than the cost of two Lyc cylinders. As an older guy facing family = pressures I can understand how you might not want to though. This is no = crime. Your needs are your own, though I would prefer to see you go back = to the rotary and succeed. We all need to go in with our eyes open. When = setting up race cars and motorcycles I would look at every part from the = stand point what will happen if this part breaks? If the result would be = a crash I would redesign the part until I was SURE it wouldn't break. If = you don't think a part is adequate DON'T USE IT! Your responsibility is = to find a part that IS good enough. Don't just hope that everything will = be OK. Work it out. Run your system enough to be sure of it in the air. = I hope everyone takes this in the spirit intended which is to have us = all come home safe. Bill Jepson ------=_NextPart_000_014C_01C63224.1FD9D9A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If we were talking about an automotive application I agree that it = would be=20 folly to run sans-airfilter.  And I qualify my non = filtered operation=20 with the proviso that you must use care when taxiing under certain=20 conditions.   The air is a lot cleaner as soon as you slip the = surly=20 bonds.   Flying or taxiing through a sand storm would of = course=20 be disastrous without an air filter.
 
Only one sample but my first engine (a well used 88 2nd gen) showed = no measurable wear (compared to when first installed) to rotor = grooves,=20 rotor housings, side housings, or side seals after 856 flight = hours.  The=20 apex seals had a maximum of .012" of wear measured at height of = seal. =20 This is the least wear I have seen when disassembling a used = engine.  I've=20 torn down about 12 so far, all used on cars except for mine, not a big=20 sample.
 
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, = 2006 9:50=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine = failures,=20 Rotary or otherwise

To clarify the air filter issue. I seem to = remember=20 someone posting a page from the mazda manual regarding apex seal = tolerances=20 after Ed's failure and later confirmed the slot was out of spec. = I=20 remember the manual said to check the air filter. Mazda seems to think = running=20 without a filter or (dirty filter?) will cause rotor apex seal slots=20 wear.  Is this correct?
 
Bobby
(not doubt I will now build a trailer test = stand and run=20 the engine many hours before it ever goes on the=20 plane)

From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al=20 Gietzen
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 1:13 = AM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine = failures,=20 Rotary or otherwise

Bill;

 

With=20 all due respect; I don=92t disagree with what you=92re saying here, = but I do take=20 offense at you calling Tracy, myself, and others =93idiots=94 because = we have=20 chosen to run without an air filter.  My intake is in front of = the prop=20 and above the wing strake.  Anyway, why climb on that = issue?  There=20 has not been a single aircraft incident that I am aware of that has = resulted=20 from not using an air filter.  Let=92s pick an issue which = has=20 caused a failure.

 

I=20 won=92t argue that running without a filter may reduce the engine = life; and I=20 may consider one later.  And yes, the engine would eventually = fail; every=20 engine will =96 filter or no filter - if you run it long=20 enough.

 

Al (I=20 guess it=92s past my bedtime)

 

 

 

 

Rusty,=20 and Group,

 I=20 understand your comments Rusty, and think you are both right and = wrong. I=20 believe it is easier, for most people, to be successful with a = standard=20 aircraft engine. I DO NOT believe this is because the Lyc, Conti, or = whatever=20 is inherently more reliable. I do believe that the ancillaries are = better=20 developed for "conventional" aircraft engines. =

Because=20 we [FlyRotary or ACRE] are = rotary=20 enthusiasts we hear about EVERY rotary problem. If we heard about = every Lyc=20 problem caused on a daily basis we might never fly spam again! I am = not trying=20 to offer so anecdote to soothe the rotary faithful, as all failures = are just=20 that, failures. I would remind everyone that ALL Lyc installs in = certified=20 aircraft now come with AIR FILTERS!

I'LL=20 SAY THIS FLAT OUT, IF YOU DON'T RUN A FILTER YOU WILL HAVE A FAILURE! = I don't=20 care if your running a conventional aircraft engine or conversion. = Running=20 unfiltered is simple idiocy.

It=20 should also be said that for Lycoming to be having crankshaft = failures, and a=20 significant number of them to initiate an AD is not only sad but = smacks=20 of reckless disregard. So saying that the aircooled aircraft engine is = super=20 reliable is simply setting yourself up for a fall. If you look at the=20 statistics most of the engine failures are "certified" engines simply = because=20 there are more of them!

ANY=20 ENGINE properly maintained and not operated outside it's normal limits = will=20 work just fine thank you, provided it is not a deficient design to = begin with.=20 The rotary requires a GOOD water and oil cooling system. If you aren't = willing=20 to work on that, stop now and don't hurt the reputation of the rest of = us and=20 go buy a Lycoming. The rewards for a GOOD installation are many but = won't=20 "just happen." As Tracy said you = must go in=20 with the knowledge of the needed systems or you will fail. If you do = slipshod=20 work, Rotary or Lycoming, YOU WILL FAIL. Someone put the old saying on = the=20 site, "How do you eat an elephant?" "One bite at a time!" This is the = proper=20 way of looking at the jobs needed to be successful. You MUST do all = the jobs.=20 (eat every bite) And most importantly you must do all the jobs well. = Safety=20 wire everything even though it's a pain in the ass. If you can't do = all the=20 jobs yourself it's no crime. Get HELP!  Buy the redrive from=20 Tracy. Or buy = from=20 Mistral, or buy them from Marcotte. Build your system up and test it = on the=20 ground. If you overheat your system on the ground don't assume it will = be=20 better in the air! (It might be, but also might not be!) Plan for an = adequate=20 sized radiator. That would be a MINIMUM of 2 cubic inches pre HP, and = that=20 only if you have PERFECT ducting. (3 c.i. per HP would be a safer bet) = Don't=20 expect you are the miracle guy that can change physics for your own=20 project.  Rusty has brought up some good points in pointing out = that if=20 you want to fly soonest buy conventional. Bernie, you can probably = rebuild=20 your system from all new parts for less than the cost of two Lyc = cylinders. As=20 an older guy facing family pressures I can understand how you might = not want=20 to though. This is no crime. Your needs are your own, though I would = prefer to=20 see you go back to the rotary and succeed. We all need to go in with = our eyes=20 open. When setting up race cars and motorcycles I would look at every = part=20 from the stand point what will happen if this part breaks? If the = result would=20 be a crash I would redesign the part until I was SURE it wouldn't = break. If=20 you don't think a part is adequate DON'T USE IT! Your responsibility = is to=20 find a part that IS good enough. Don't just hope that everything will = be OK.=20 Work it out. Run your system enough to be sure of it in the=20 air. I hope everyone takes this in the spirit intended which = is to=20 have us all come home safe.

Bill=20 Jepson

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