X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail.lincsatmail.com ([207.179.143.254] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 985908 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:23:57 -0500 Received-SPF: neutral receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.179.143.254; envelope-from=echolakeresort@telus.net Received: from echolake-cc8a26 ([204.101.233.220]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.lincsatmail.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k1FFMwDC019415 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:23:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <43F3474A.000001.02596@ECHOLAKE-CC8A26> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 07:22:50 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_2QIQQL80000000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail (4502089) From: "Echo Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher)" References: To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine failures, Rotary or otherwise X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-Priority: 3 --------------Boundary-00=_2QIQQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FWIW=0D I have followed this forum for the last 2 years & read most of the incide= nts I haven't found one that was caused by the rotary engine it's self, all = of them have been caused by overhaul or installation design mistakes/over-si= tes This is not meant to criticize the builders personally, only to point ou= t that "Experimental" means trial & error, learning & improving from unsuccessful installations/modification. But I do think that if you are n= ot 100% confident in your ability to make a safe workable conversion & willi= ng to learn from these incidents you should stay on the ground, a Lyc. will = not necessarily make you safer.=0D My 2 bits worth.=0D =0D Georges B.=0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Al Gietzen=0D Date: 02/14/06 23:13:49=0D To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine failures, Rotary or otherwise=0D =0D Bill;=0D =0D With all due respect; I don=92t disagree with what you=92re saying here, = but I do take offense at you calling Tracy, myself, and others =93idiots=94 bec= ause we have chosen to run without an air filter. My intake is in front of the p= rop and above the wing strake. Anyway, why climb on that issue? There has n= ot been a single aircraft incident that I am aware of that has resulted from not using an air filter. Let=92s pick an issue which has caused a failur= e.=0D =0D I won=92t argue that running without a filter may reduce the engine life;= and I may consider one later. And yes, the engine would eventually fail; eve= ry engine will =96 filter or no filter - if you run it long enough.=0D =0D Al (I guess it=92s past my bedtime)=0D =0D =0D =0D =0D Rusty, and Group,=0D I understand your comments Rusty, and think you are both right and wrong= =2E I believe it is easier, for most people, to be successful with a standard aircraft engine. I DO NOT believe this is because the Lyc, Conti, or whatever is inherently more reliable. I do believe that the ancillaries a= re better developed for "conventional" aircraft engines. =0D Because we [FlyRotary or ACRE] are rotary enthusiasts we hear about EVERY rotary problem. If we heard about every Lyc problem caused on a daily bas= is we might never fly spam again! I am not trying to offer so anecdote to soothe the rotary faithful, as all failures are just that, failures. I wo= uld remind everyone that ALL Lyc installs in certified aircraft now come with AIR FILTERS! =0D I'LL SAY THIS FLAT OUT, IF YOU DON'T RUN A FILTER YOU WILL HAVE A FAILURE= ! I don't care if your running a conventional aircraft engine or conversion. Running unfiltered is simple idiocy. =0D It should also be said that for Lycoming to be having crankshaft failures= , and a significant number of them to initiate an AD is not only sad but smacks of reckless disregard. So saying that the aircooled aircraft engin= e is super reliable is simply setting yourself up for a fall. If you look a= t the statistics most of the engine failures are "certified" engines simply because there are more of them! =0D ANY ENGINE properly maintained and not operated outside it's normal limit= s will work just fine thank you, provided it is not a deficient design to begin with. The rotary requires a GOOD water and oil cooling system. If y= ou aren't willing to work on that, stop now and don't hurt the reputation of the rest of us and go buy a Lycoming. The rewards for a GOOD installation are many but won't "just happen." As Tracy said you must go in with the knowledge of the needed systems or you will fail. If you do slipshod work= , Rotary or Lycoming, YOU WILL FAIL. Someone put the old saying on the site= ,=20 How do you eat an elephant?" "One bite at a time!" This is the proper way= of looking at the jobs needed to be successful. You MUST do all the jobs. (e= at every bite) And most importantly you must do all the jobs well. Safety wi= re everything even though it's a pain in the ass. If you can't do all the jo= bs yourself it's no crime. Get HELP! Buy the redrive from Tracy. Or buy fro= m Mistral, or buy them from Marcotte. Build your system up and test it on t= he ground. If you overheat your system on the ground don't assume it will be better in the air! (It might be, but also might not be!) Plan for an adequate sized radiator. That would be a MINIMUM of 2 cubic inches pre HP= , and that only if you have PERFECT ducting. (3 c.i. per HP would be a safe= r bet) Don't expect you are the miracle guy that can change physics for you= r own project. Rusty has brought up some good points in pointing out that = if you want to fly soonest buy conventional. Bernie, you can probably rebuil= d your system from all new parts for less than the cost of two Lyc cylinder= s. As an older guy facing family pressures I can understand how you might no= t want to though. This is no crime. Your needs are your own, though I would prefer to see you go back to the rotary and succeed. We all need to go in with our eyes open. When setting up race cars and motorcycles I would loo= k at every part from the stand point what will happen if this part breaks? = If the result would be a crash I would redesign the part until I was SURE it wouldn't break. If you don't think a part is adequate DON'T USE IT! Your responsibility is to find a part that IS good enough. Don't just hope tha= t everything will be OK. Work it out. Run your system enough to be sure of = it in the air. I hope everyone takes this in the spirit intended which is to have us all come home safe.=0D Bill Jepson=0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_2QIQQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 FWIW
I have followed this forum for the last 2 years & read most of t= he incidents. I haven't found one that was caused by the rotary engine it= 's self, all of them have been caused by overhaul or installation design&= nbsp;mistakes/over-sites. This is not meant to criticize the builders per= sonally, only to point out that "Experimental" means trial & error, l= earning & improving from unsuccessful installations/modification. But= I do think that if you are not 100% confident in your ability to make a = safe workable conversion & willing to learn from these incidents you = should stay on the ground, a Lyc. will not necessarily make you safe= r.
My 2 bits worth.
 
 Georges B.
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 02/14/06 23:= 13:49
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: Engine failures, Rotary or otherwise
 

Bill;

 

With all due respect; I don=92t disagree with what you=92= re saying here, but I do take offense at you calling Tracy, myself, and o= thers =93idiots=94 because we have chosen to run without an air filter.&n= bsp; My intake is in front of the prop and above the wing strake.  A= nyway, why climb on that issue?  There has not been a single aircraf= t incident that I am aware of that has resulted from not using an air fil= ter.  Let=92s pick an issue which has caused a failure.

 

I won=92t argue that running without a filter may reduce= the engine life; and I may consider one later.  And yes, the engine= would eventually fail; every engine will =96 filter or no filter - if yo= u run it long enough.

 

Al (I guess it=92s past my bedtime)

 

 

 

 

Rusty, and Group,

 I understand your comments Rusty, and think you are = both right and wrong. I believe it is easier, for most people, to be succ= essful with a standard aircraft engine. I DO NOT believe this is because = the Lyc, Conti, or whatever is inherently more reliable. I do believe tha= t the ancillaries are better developed for "conventional" aircraft engine= s.

Because we [FlyRotary or ACRE] are= rotary enthusiasts we hear about EVERY rotary problem. If we heard about= every Lyc problem caused on a daily basis we might never fly spam again!= I am not trying to offer so anecdote to soothe the rotary faithful, as a= ll failures are just that, failures. I would remind everyone that ALL Lyc= installs in certified aircraft now come with AIR FILTERS! =

I'LL SAY THIS FLAT OUT, IF YOU DON'T RUN A FILTER YOU WILL= HAVE A FAILURE! I don't care if your running a conventional aircraft eng= ine or conversion. Running unfiltered is simple idiocy.

It should also be said that for Lycoming to be having cran= kshaft failures, and a significant number of them to initiate an AD = is not only sad but smacks of reckless disregard. So saying that the airc= ooled aircraft engine is super reliable is simply setting yourself up for= a fall. If you look at the statistics most of the engine failures are "c= ertified" engines simply because there are more of them!

ANY ENGINE properly maintained and not operated outside it= 's normal limits will work just fine thank you, provided it is not a defi= cient design to begin with. The rotary requires a GOOD water and oil cool= ing system. If you aren't willing to work on that, stop now and don't hur= t the reputation of the rest of us and go buy a Lycoming. The rewards for= a GOOD installation are many but won't "just happen." As <= FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2>Tracy said you must go in with the knowledge of the needed syst= ems or you will fail. If you do slipshod work, Rotary or Lycoming, YOU WI= LL FAIL. Someone put the old saying on the site, "How do you eat an eleph= ant?" "One bite at a time!" This is the proper way of looking at the jobs= needed to be successful. You MUST do all the jobs. (eat every bite) And = most importantly you must do all the jobs well. Safety wire everything ev= en though it's a pain in the ass. If you can't do all the jobs yourself i= t's no crime. Get HELP!  Buy the redrive from Tracy. Or buy from Mistral, or buy them from Marcotte. Build your syst= em up and test it on the ground. If you overheat your system on the groun= d don't assume it will be better in the air! (It might be, but also might= not be!) Plan for an adequate sized radiator. That would be a MINIMUM of= 2 cubic inches pre HP, and that only if you have PERFECT ducting. (3 c.i= =2E per HP would be a safer bet) Don't expect you are the miracle guy tha= t can change physics for your own project.  Rusty has brought up som= e good points in pointing out that if you want to fly soonest buy convent= ional. Bernie, you can probably rebuild your system from all new parts fo= r less than the cost of two Lyc cylinders. As an older guy facing family = pressures I can understand how you might not want to though. This is no c= rime. Your needs are your own, though I would prefer to see you go back t= o the rotary and succeed. We all need to go in with our eyes open. When s= etting up race cars and motorcycles I would look at every part from the s= tand point what will happen if this part breaks? If the result would be a= crash I would redesign the part until I was SURE it wouldn't break. If y= ou don't think a part is adequate DON'T USE IT! Your responsibility is to= find a part that IS good enough. Don't just hope that everything will be= OK. Work it out. Run your system enough to be sure of it in the air.&nbs= p;I hope everyone takes this in the spirit intended which is to have= us all come home safe.

Bill Jepson

 
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