X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from m12.lax.untd.com ([64.136.30.75] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with SMTP id 970451 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 04 Feb 2006 19:40:47 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.30.75; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com Received: from m12.lax.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m12.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABB8LUL6AL7XPS2 for (sender ); Sat, 4 Feb 2006 16:39:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from alwick@juno.com) by m12.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id LGEHFSHC; Sat, 04 Feb 2006 16:39:32 PST To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 16:38:41 -0800 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Suitability of NPG for Rotary Engine use Message-ID: <20060204.163900.560.3.alwick@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=--__JNP_000_3a33.7c49.27e1 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8-6,9-20,26-35,41,44,51,53-54,60-61,65-68,71-83,85-99,102-103,105-106,108-109,111-112,115-116,118-140,141-32767 From: al p wick X-ContentStamp: 2:3:2950396101 X-MAIL-INFO: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 a37acece576ed70f87feee231f5bcb274ee76f1b2b2bfe434773021f670e3eda2b3be3 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkNTBuH+gCRGq9t0Syu2xONn9CZWZofAuiA== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m12.lax.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_3a33.7c49.27e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They've had good luck with NPG, unfortunately it does not cure all ills. It did improve their safety margin. As far as I know they haven't had a boil over since going to NPG. -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:54:23 -0500 "Tracy Crook" writes: Al, if you are talking about their RV FWF package, I'm amazed that the Egg setup cools as well as it does. That is the crudest cooling duct I can imagine (flat sided sheet metal box behind the inlets) and it would not work at all if it were not for external diffusion helping them out. Could be wrong, but I think their "flow restriction" idea is a dead end idea just as the NPG was. Tracy ----- Original Message ----- From: al p Wick To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 6:45 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Suitability of NPG for Rotary Engine use Hey Dave, I hear you about cooling. I fly the exact same engine as the Egg guys. Same fuel burn, same cruise speed. I can get my coolant temp to rise only by extended taxi during hot weather. I then take off full throttle from sea level to 12k ft, and it cools during the climb back to normal 200F operating temp. My coolant pressure never exceeds 7psi. Using 50/50 glycol mix. So I have a huge safety margin. The Egg guys have had a significant cooling problem for years. Finally resorted to using Evans. Yet they still are unable to achieve the same robust cooling. So both aircraft are producing the same work. What's the difference???......I don't know. That's one of the problems with cooling. It's so difficult to measure the characteristics that count. This is a familiar pattern. All of the most difficult problems businesses have always involve this same pattern. If you can't readily measure it, then we make the wrong decisions and don't have a clue. Rumors and assumptions survive year after year. Egg guys just recently made some progress. They found that all their radiators had flow restriction. Yet they are still not there. So I have some theories. I place little value in theory however. I suspect all the RV's suffer from high velocity, turbulent air. My radiator is placed 6" directly behind a NACA. The air is slowed down, doesn't have to turn any corners. I would sure be quick to test that theory. I notice that NSI RV's place radiator near firewall. Slower moving air. But I don't have any info on their cooling efficiency. They say to "dig wide", not deep when pursuing problems. Meaning, don't try to finesse a problem. Try all manner of solutions. Find ways to measure the airflow. I used atmospheric pressure sensors on each side of radiator. Good luck BTW, based on your descriptions, I too would give strong consideration to Evans. I deliberately overheated my engine many times during taxi runs. Familiar with the boil over cascading failure. Learned a lot. -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:04:22 -0800 David Leonard writes: The HP is the easy part. Get the cooling right first. Lynn E. Hanover Very true. Will the "right" cooling system please stand up! My cooling system is too small for the power I wanted to be able to use. I could still outrun any 160 hp RV-6 and outperform those with 180 hp and fixed pitch props. But I was out-climbed by the guys with 180hp and c/s props and outrun by the 200 h.p. crowd. This should have been good enough. Flying n.a. there were no cooling issues at all. But I am starting to think that cooling is like money. No matter how much you have, its never quite enough. My current plan it to go from a 2" rad to a 3" rad of the same or larger surface area. I will also add some fresh intake ducting, a cowl flap, and spray system. That should allow me to easily beat the 200h.p. guys.... but then there is always the tri-aviathon... Any suggestions? :-) -- Dave Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html http://membersaol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ----__JNP_000_3a33.7c49.27e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
They've had good luck with NPG, unfortunately it does not cure all = ills. It=20 did improve their safety margin. As far as I know they haven't had a boil = over=20 since going to NPG.
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by= =20 stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland,=20 Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel = design=20 info:
http:= //www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html

 
On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:54:23 -0500 "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com> writes:
Al, if you are talking about their RV FWF package, I'm amazed that = the=20 Egg setup cools as well as it does.  That is the crudest cooling = duct I=20 can imagine (flat sided sheet metal box behind the inlets) and it = would=20 not work at all if it were not for external diffusion helping them out.&= nbsp;=20 Could be wrong, but I think their "flow restriction" idea is a dead end = idea=20 just as the NPG was. 
 
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: al p Wick
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20
Sent: Thursday, February 02, = 2006 6:45=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Suitability of=20 NPG for Rotary Engine use

Hey Dave, I hear you about cooling. I fly the exact same engine as= the=20 Egg guys. Same fuel burn, same cruise speed. I can get my coolant temp = to=20 rise only by extended taxi during hot weather. I then take off full = throttle=20 from sea level to 12k ft, and it cools during the climb back to normal = 200F=20 operating temp. My coolant pressure never exceeds 7psi. Using 50/50 = glycol=20 mix. So I have a huge safety margin.
The Egg guys have had a significant cooling problem for years. = Finally=20 resorted to using Evans. Yet they still are unable to achieve the same= =20 robust cooling.
So both aircraft are producing the same work. What's the=20 difference???......I don't know. That's one of the problems with = cooling.=20 It's so difficult to measure the characteristics that count. This is a= =20 familiar pattern. All of the most difficult problems businesses have = always=20 involve this same pattern. If you can't readily measure it, then we = make the=20 wrong decisions and don't have a clue. Rumors and assumptions survive = year=20 after year.
Egg guys just recently made some progress. They found that all = their=20 radiators had flow restriction. Yet they are still not there.
 
So I have some theories. I place little value in theory however.&= nbsp;I=20 suspect all the RV's suffer from high velocity, turbulent air. My = radiator=20 is placed 6" directly behind a NACA. The air is slowed down,  = doesn't=20 have to turn any corners. I would sure be quick to test that theory. I= =20 notice that NSI RV's place radiator near firewall. Slower moving air. = But I=20 don't have any info on their cooling efficiency.
 
They say to "dig wide", not deep when pursuing problems. Meaning, = don't=20 try to finesse a problem. Try all manner of solutions. Find ways to = measure=20 the airflow. I used atmospheric pressure sensors on each side of=20 radiator.
 
Good luck
 
BTW, based on your descriptions, I too would give strong=20 consideration to Evans. I deliberately overheated my engine many = times=20 during taxi runs. Familiar with the boil over cascading failure. = Learned a=20 lot.
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV = powered by=20 stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland,= =20 Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel= =20 design info:
= http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
 
 
 
 
On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:04:22 -0800 David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> writes:=


 
 
 
The HP is the easy part. Get the cooling right first.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
 
 
Very true.  Will the "right" cooling system please stand=20 up!
 
My cooling system is too small for the power I wanted to be=20 able to use.  I could still outrun any 160 hp RV-6 and=20 outperform those with 180 hp and fixed pitch props. 
 
But I was out-climbed by the guys with 180hp and c/s props and = outrun=20 by the 200 h.p. crowd. 
 
This should have been good enough.  Flying n.a. there were = no=20 cooling issues at all.
 
But I am starting to think that cooling is like money. = ; No=20 matter how much you have, its never quite enough.
 
My current plan it to go from a 2" rad to a 3" rad of the same = or=20 larger surface area.  I will also add some fresh = intake=20 ducting, a cowl flap, and spray system.
 
That should allow me to easily beat the 200h.p. guys....  = but=20 then there is always the tri-aviathon...
 
Any suggestions?  :-)

--
Dave=20 Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://= members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html
http://= membersaol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html=20
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence= in=20 cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on=20 engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install= ,=20 Risk assessment, Glass panel design=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html<= BR>
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in= =20 cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on=20 engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, = Risk=20 assessment, Glass panel design=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
----__JNP_000_3a33.7c49.27e1--