X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.100] (HELO ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.7) with ESMTP id 964751 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:00:28 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.100; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-025-165.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.25.165]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id k12Dxe1I002376 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:59:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001801c62800$ee553370$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: NPG has been used successfully-Ken Welter's Coot Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:59:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C627D7.05379B20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C627D7.05379B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [FlyRotary] NPG has been used successfully-Ken Welter'Thanks, Ken Your information could indicate that problem Dave Leonard encountered a = viscosity related problem into after filling his cooling system with NPG = in cold mountain weather. =20 It appears that like many things - success or not depends on = circumstances. It has been my experience that things that are gang = busters for the rotary racing crowd do not necessarily turn out to be = well suited to our operating environment for the 13B. I would still have a great deal of concern about 100% glycol leaking = onto a hot exhaust. The chance of a 50/50 mixture igniting has a very = low probability due to the heat absorbing nature of the water in the = mixture. =20 Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ken Welter=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 2:06 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: NPG has been used successfully-Ken Welter's = Coot Yes I used NPG for several hundred hrs and it seemed to work fine = but I switched back to 60 percent Sierra 40 water mix do to the = availability and my concerns of the viscosity in the sub zero temps that = I fly in, the main concern was possibly over stressing the belts when it = was thick and hot spots do to slow fluid flow. I first 300 hrs flying used the Sierra blend and then switch to the = NPG for about 300 hrs and then switched back and I found that there was = no noticeable temperature/cooling differences between the two. Yes Rob Golden swears by NPG and he was the one that turned me onto = it in my early days of flying when I was having cooling problems but he = then also had concerns about the viscosity at high attitudes and cold = temps so I them switched back. Ken Welter =20 Just one more data point. Al Wick asked if there was anyone else = that had used NPG besides Dave Leonard. I recall Ken Welter (rotary powered Coot amphib.) used NPG several = years ago. He had no complaints about its cooling ability and he was = running an old Ross redrive at 3.17:1 (no, not 2.17) making LOTS of = horsepower. He said (IIRC) the only reason he went back to EG & water = was that if you ended up doing some field repair work on your bird you = can not just throw in some water in the mix to make it home. NPG is = supposed to be run at 100% with as much water removed as possible before = pouring it in. (Note: I understand this is not the case with NPG+) The real problem with NPG in our rotary powered birds is you can't = walk into any auto parts / wal-mart / seven-11 to get an extra gallon of = the stuff to get you home. You can find EG or just water anywhere. One more data point while I'm here. Rob Golden of Pineapple racing = in Portland Oregon swears by the stuff. Rob has been rebuilding and = racing rotaries very successfully for over 30 years. I have not talked = to him in over a year but he used to send every engine out with only NPG = and I believe he required it for the warranty. Now of course he sells = the stuff so there is that bias on the fly in the ointment. Neither of these above points addresses the super cooling issue that = in theory seems to be able to turn NPG in the radiator to jelly. Once = again we are left to do a thorough test. Those of us like Dave who like = the idea of flying into high cold places like Mammoth Lakes to go skiing = (sorry Dave..boarding) P-) may need to plan on a winterization kit like they use in the great = white north, i.e. duc-tape over the cowl inlets. Okay, I've rambled on enough. Talk amongst yourselves.... Mike Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR 13B in gestation mode, RD-1C, EC-2 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C627D7.05379B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [FlyRotary] NPG has been used successfully-Ken = Welter'
Thanks, Ken
 
Your information could indicate that problem = Dave Leonard=20 encountered a viscosity related problem into after filling his cooling = system=20 with NPG in cold mountain weather.  
 
It appears that like many things - success or = not depends=20 on circumstances.  It has been my experience that things that are = gang=20 busters for the rotary racing crowd do not necessarily  turn out to = be well=20 suited to our operating environment for the 13B.
 
I would still have a great deal of concern about = 100%=20 glycol  leaking onto a hot exhaust.  The chance of a 50/50 = mixture=20 igniting has a very low probability due to the heat absorbing nature of = the=20 water in the mixture. 
 
 
Ed A
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ken=20 Welter
Sent: Thursday, February 02, = 2006 2:06=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: NPG = has been=20 used successfully-Ken Welter's Coot


   Yes I used NPG for several = hundred hrs=20 and it seemed to work fine but I switched back to 60 percent Sierra 40 = water=20 mix do to the availability and my concerns of the viscosity in the sub = zero=20 temps that I fly in, the main concern was possibly over stressing the = belts=20 when it was thick and hot spots do to slow fluid flow.
  I first 300 hrs flying used the = Sierra blend=20 and then switch to the NPG for about 300 hrs and then switched back = and I=20 found that there was no noticeable temperature/cooling differences = between the=20 two.
  Yes Rob Golden swears by NPG and he = was the=20 one that turned me onto it in my early days of flying when I was = having=20 cooling problems but he then also had concerns about the viscosity at = high=20 attitudes and cold temps so I them switched back.
  Ken Welter
  




Just one more data point.  Al = Wick=20 asked if there was anyone else that had used NPG besides Dave=20 Leonard.

I recall Ken Welter (rotary powered Coot amphib.) = used NPG=20 several years ago.  He had no complaints about its cooling = ability and=20 he was running an old Ross redrive at 3.17:1 (no, not 2.17) making = LOTS of=20 horsepower.  He said (IIRC) the only reason he went back to EG = &=20 water was that if you ended up doing some field repair work on your = bird you=20 can not just throw in some water in the mix to make it home.  = NPG is=20 supposed to be run at 100% with as much water removed as possible = before=20 pouring it in.  (Note: I understand this is not the case with=20 NPG+)

The real problem with NPG in our rotary powered birds = is you=20 can't walk into any auto parts / wal-mart / seven-11 to get an extra = gallon=20 of the stuff to get you home.  You can find EG or just water=20 anywhere.

One more data point while I'm here.  Rob = Golden of=20 Pineapple racing in Portland Oregon swears by the stuff.  Rob = has been=20 rebuilding and racing rotaries very successfully for over 30 = years.  I=20 have not talked to him in over a year but he used to send every = engine out=20 with only NPG and I believe he required it for the warranty.  = Now of=20 course he sells the stuff so there is that bias on the fly in the=20 ointment.

Neither of these above points addresses the super = cooling=20 issue that in theory seems to be able to turn NPG in the radiator to = jelly.  Once again we are left to do a thorough test.  = Those of us=20 like Dave who like the idea of flying into high cold places like = Mammoth=20 Lakes to go skiing (sorry Dave..boarding)  P-)
may need to = plan on a=20 winterization kit like they use in the great white north, i.e. = duc-tape over=20 the cowl inlets.

Okay, I've rambled on enough.  Talk = amongst=20 yourselves....

Mike
Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, = Hillsboro,=20 OR
13B in gestation mode, RD-1C,=20 EC-2

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