X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.103] (HELO ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.7) with ESMTP id 964745 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:52:58 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.103; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-025-165.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.25.165]) by ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id k12DqAaD025963 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:52:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001001c627ff$e20722a0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] NPG has been used successfully-Ken Welter's Coot Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:52:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C627D5.F8EE4540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C627D5.F8EE4540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Mike. Appreciate the input on the use of NPG in rotaries. It would be nice to = know if the racer's 13Bs used stock cooling system components - = frequently racers do not (higher capacity pumps, larger radiators, etc) = , but then sometimes the rules require them to use stock cooling = systems. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michael McGee=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 12:27 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] NPG has been used successfully-Ken Welter's Coot Just one more data point. Al Wick asked if there was anyone else that = had used NPG besides Dave Leonard. I recall Ken Welter (rotary powered Coot amphib.) used NPG several = years ago. He had no complaints about its cooling ability and he was = running an old Ross redrive at 3.17:1 (no, not 2.17) making LOTS of = horsepower. He said (IIRC) the only reason he went back to EG & water = was that if you ended up doing some field repair work on your bird you = can not just throw in some water in the mix to make it home. NPG is = supposed to be run at 100% with as much water removed as possible before = pouring it in. (Note: I understand this is not the case with NPG+) The real problem with NPG in our rotary powered birds is you can't = walk into any auto parts / wal-mart / seven-11 to get an extra gallon of = the stuff to get you home. You can find EG or just water anywhere. One more data point while I'm here. Rob Golden of Pineapple racing in = Portland Oregon swears by the stuff. Rob has been rebuilding and racing = rotaries very successfully for over 30 years. I have not talked to him = in over a year but he used to send every engine out with only NPG and I = believe he required it for the warranty. Now of course he sells the = stuff so there is that bias on the fly in the ointment.=20 Neither of these above points addresses the super cooling issue that = in theory seems to be able to turn NPG in the radiator to jelly. Once = again we are left to do a thorough test. Those of us like Dave who like = the idea of flying into high cold places like Mammoth Lakes to go skiing = (sorry Dave..boarding) P-) may need to plan on a winterization kit like they use in the great = white north, i.e. duc-tape over the cowl inlets. Okay, I've rambled on enough. Talk amongst yourselves.... Mike Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR 13B in gestation mode, RD-1C, EC-2 At 19:36 2006-02-01, you wrote: Well, I'm not ready to agree with that conclusion yet. And who say's = we need to keep the cooling system stock? Mike Ed Anderson wrote: Thanks for your assessment, Monty. Scares me a bit that we all (more or less) agree that the NPG is = probably not well suited to the stock rotary coolant system {:>) Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M Roberts=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 8:35 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] sutability of NPG for rotary engine use <<< snip >>> In short: The 13b was developed to use water/glycol as a coolant. To properly validate NPG you need a dyno and a lot of = thermocouples, plus a way to measure the mass flow of the coolant, = pressure drops, pump power, and the heat transfer coefficient.=20 Anybody got that laying around in their hangar? Do you want to be a guinea pig? I would not use NPG. Monty ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C627D5.F8EE4540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks, Mike.
 
Appreciate the input on the use of NPG in = rotaries. =20 It would be nice to know if the racer's 13Bs used stock cooling system=20 components - frequently racers do not (higher capacity pumps, larger = radiators,=20 etc) , but then sometimes the rules require them to use stock cooling=20 systems.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Michael=20 McGee
Sent: Thursday, February 02, = 2006 12:27=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] NPG has = been used=20 successfully-Ken Welter's Coot

Just one more data point.  Al Wick asked if there = was=20 anyone else that had used NPG besides Dave Leonard.

I recall = Ken Welter=20 (rotary powered Coot amphib.) used NPG several years ago.  He had = no=20 complaints about its cooling ability and he was running an old Ross = redrive at=20 3.17:1 (no, not 2.17) making LOTS of horsepower.  He said (IIRC) = the only=20 reason he went back to EG & water was that if you ended up doing = some=20 field repair work on your bird you can not just throw in some water in = the mix=20 to make it home.  NPG is supposed to be run at 100% with as much = water=20 removed as possible before pouring it in.  (Note: I understand = this is=20 not the case with NPG+)

The real problem with NPG in our rotary = powered=20 birds is you can't walk into any auto parts / wal-mart / seven-11 to = get an=20 extra gallon of the stuff to get you home.  You can find EG or = just water=20 anywhere.

One more data point while I'm here.  Rob Golden = of=20 Pineapple racing in Portland Oregon swears by the stuff.  Rob has = been=20 rebuilding and racing rotaries very successfully for over 30 = years.  I=20 have not talked to him in over a year but he used to send every engine = out=20 with only NPG and I believe he required it for the warranty.  Now = of=20 course he sells the stuff so there is that bias on the fly in the = ointment.=20

Neither of these above points addresses the super cooling = issue that=20 in theory seems to be able to turn NPG in the radiator to jelly.  = Once=20 again we are left to do a thorough test.  Those of us like Dave = who like=20 the idea of flying into high cold places like Mammoth Lakes to go = skiing=20 (sorry Dave..boarding)  P-)
may need to plan on a = winterization kit=20 like they use in the great white north, i.e. duc-tape over the cowl=20 inlets.

Okay, I've rambled on enough.  Talk amongst=20 yourselves....

Mike
Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, = Hillsboro,=20 OR
13B in gestation mode, RD-1C, EC-2



At 19:36 = 2006-02-01,=20 you wrote:
Well, I'm not ready = to agree with=20 that conclusion yet. And who say's we need to keep the cooling = system=20 stock?

Mike

Ed Anderson=20 <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
Thanks for your assessment,=20 Monty.

 
Scares me a bit that we all = (more or=20 less) agree that the NPG is probably not well suited to the stock = rotary=20 coolant system {:>)

 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: M = Roberts
To: Rotary motors=20 in aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 8:35 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] sutability of NPG for rotary engine = use

<<<  snip   >>>

In = short:

 
The 13b was = developed to use=20 water/glycol as a coolant.

 
To properly = validate NPG you=20 need a dyno and a lot of thermocouples, plus a way to measure = the mass=20 flow of the coolant, pressure drops, pump power, and the heat = transfer=20 coefficient.

 
Anybody got that = laying around=20 in their hangar?

 
Do you want to be a = guinea=20 pig?

 
I would not use NPG.

 
Monty

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