X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.100] (HELO ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.7) with ESMTP id 961155 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:32:42 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.100; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-025-165.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.25.165]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id k0UMVpvk007719 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:31:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000701c625ec$f87b0840$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling air inlets Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:31:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C625C3.0F566B10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C625C3.0F566B10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aha! Something a bit different ok.=20 I don't have any experience pushing oil that distance. However, I = would think extra care on initial start up is in order as I'm sure you = are already aware. By that, I mean to make certain the oil system = (coolers/line/filter) are filled with oil. Given how long it sometimes = takes cranking to get oil up on a newly rebuilt engine, I can only think = it would be much longer with that much volume in your oil system - = before oil actually begins to flow - unless they are already filled. I didn't catch the size of your oil coolers, but oil thermostats might = be a consideration if you fly in cold weather. Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: bmears9413@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 5:22 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling air inlets Thanks Ed, I also didnt mention that since Im building a Spitfire, I have two oil = coolers mounted in scoops under the wings. I do have concerns of pushing = oil that far. Anyone of any limits? I'll be going from engine to oil = cooler one, then oil cooler two and back to engine. I havent actually = measured it yet but I'm guessing that would be about 15' of oil hose. Bob Mears =20 -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:51:35 -0500 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling air inlets Hi Bob, I fly a Rv-6A with a 13B. I started out using 24 square inch opening = for each of the radiator cores AND 24 square inch opening for the oil = cooler for a total of 3x24 =3D 72 sq inches. I have since reduced the radiator openings to 18 sq inches each - = leaving the oil cooler at 24 sq inches for a total of 60 sq inches, but = I spent a lot of research and experimenting with the ducts to get the = best pressure recovery I could. =20 I estimate (based on fuel burn) that I am producing between 170-180HP. = Naturally the more HP you make the more cooling you need. So what may = work fine for a 160 HP engine may be marginal (or worst) for a 180-200 = HP installation. =20 50 sq inches will probably cool at cruise with no problem - however, = it could be marginal or worst on a hot day with a max power climbout. A = lot depends on how well the ducting and exit of the air is done. = Ducting and associated detail is one reason why seemingly identical = installations may vary greatly in cooling ability. Its all about trade offs, given sufficient surface area and airflow - = IT WILL COOL. However, you may encounter lots of cooling drag if you = have not make an attempt to optimize your compromise. =20 Its possible that using one 50 sq inch duct (such as the James cowl) = may be adequate (I believe Tracy Crook is intending to use such with a = 20 B - so if it will cool a 20 B then there is little doubt it will cool = a 13B). I am eagerly awaiting the results of using such approaches . Ed=20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Downing=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 9:22 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling air inlets Bob; The 40 sq. will not cool the engine. Ed and others are using = a 2 1/2 inch x 10 inch hole under the spinner for the oil cooler, as = more than half of the engine cooling is through oil, as I understand it. = I'm working on the oil cooler opening as well as the round holes to = cool the coolant. My exit is currently 61.8 sq. inches, so it appears = that I need to add some type of cowl flaps to exit more air. JohnD = from the farm ----- Original Message -----=20 From: BMears9413@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 9:19 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Cooling air inlets That's good to know that you think around 40 square inches of air = inlet will cool your motor. I'm planning to run an underbelly air scoop = to the radiator that will have 51 sq. in. inlet. I had no idea if that = would be enough. but from what you guys are saying, in should be = sufficient for my 20B. Bob Mears ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C625C3.0F566B10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Aha!  Something a bit different=20 ok. 
 
 I don't have any experience pushing oil = that=20 distance.  However, I would think extra care on initial start up is = in=20 order as I'm sure you are already aware.  By that, I mean to make = certain=20 the oil system (coolers/line/filter) are filled with oil.  Given = how long=20 it sometimes takes cranking to get oil up on a newly rebuilt engine, I = can only=20 think it would be much longer with that much volume in your oil system - = before=20 oil actually begins to flow - unless they are already = filled.
 
I didn't catch the size of your oil coolers, but = oil=20 thermostats might be a consideration if you fly in cold = weather.
 
Ed A
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 bmears9413@aol.com
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 = 5:22=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Cooling air=20 inlets

Thanks Ed,
I also didnt mention = that since=20 Im building a Spitfire, I have = two oil=20 coolers mounted in scoops under the wings. I do have concerns of pushing oil that far. Anyone of any limits? = I'll be=20 going from engine to oil cooler one, then oil cooler two and back to = engine. I=20 havent actually measured it yet but I'm guessing that would be = about 15'=20 of oil hose.
 
Bob Mears
 
-----Original = Message-----
From: Ed=20 Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, 30 Jan = 2006=20 09:51:35 -0500
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Cooling air inlets

Hi Bob,
 
I fly a Rv-6A with a=20 13B.  I started out using 24 square inch opening for each of the radiator cores AND 24 square = inch opening=20 for the oil cooler for a total of 3x24 =3D 72 sq inches.
 
I have since reduced the radiator openings to 18 = sq inches each - leaving the oil = cooler at 24=20 sq inches for a total of 60 = sq inches, but I spent  a lot = of research=20 and experimenting with  the ducts to get the best pressure = recovery=20 I  could. 
 
I estimate (based on fuel burn) that I am = producing between=20 170-180HP.  Naturally the more HP you make the more cooling you=20 need.  So what may work fine for a 160 HP engine may be marginal = (or=20 worst) for a 180-200 HP installation. 
 
50 sq = inches will=20 probably cool at cruise with no problem - however, it could be = marginal=20 or worst on a hot day with a max power climbout.  A lot depends on how well the ducting = and exit of=20 the air is done.  Ducting and associated detail is one = reason=20 why seemingly identical installations may vary greatly in cooling=20 ability.
 
Its all about trade offs, given sufficient surface = area and=20 airflow - IT WILL COOL.  However, you may encounter lots of = cooling drag=20 if you have not make an attempt to optimize your compromise. =20
 
Its possible that using one 50 sq inch duct (such as the James cowl) may be adequate = (I believe=20 Tracy Crook is intending to use such with a 20 B - so if it will cool = a 20 B=20 then there is little doubt it will cool a 13B).   I am = eagerly=20 awaiting the results of using such approaches .
 
Ed
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A=20 N494BW Rotary = Powered
Matthews,=20 NC
eander= son@carolina.rr.com
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Downing
To: Rota= ry=20 motors in aircraft
Sent: Monday, January 30, = 2006 9:22=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Cooling air=20 inlets

Bob;  The 40 sq. = will not cool=20 the engine.  Ed and others are using a 2 1/2 inch x 10 inch = hole under=20 the spinner for the oil cooler, as more than half of the engine = cooling is=20 through oil, as I understand it.  I'm working on the oil cooler = opening=20 as well as the round holes to cool the coolant.  My exit is = currently=20 61.8 sq. inches, so it = appears that I=20 need to add some type of cowl flaps to exit more air.  = JohnD     from = the=20 farm
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 BMears9413@ao= l.com=20
To: Rota= ry=20 motors in aircraft
Sent: Sunday, January 29, = 2006 9:19=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Cooling air=20 inlets

That's good to know that you think around 40 square inches of = air=20 inlet will cool your motor. I'm planning to run an underbelly air scoop to the radiator = that will have=20 51 sq. in. inlet. I had no idea if that would be enough. but from = what you=20 guys are saying, in should be sufficient for my 20B.
 
Bob Mears
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