X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from misav06.sasknet.sk.ca ([142.165.20.170] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.6) with ESMTP id 932297 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:35:12 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=142.165.20.170; envelope-from=hjjohnson@sasktel.net Received: from bgmpomr1.sasknet.sk.ca ([142.165.72.22]) by misav06 with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:34:27 -0600 Received: from home ([204.83.195.66]) by bgmpomr1.sasknet.sk.ca (SaskTel eMessaging Service) with ESMTPA id <0ITB00CH4LXES770@bgmpomr1.sasknet.sk.ca> for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:34:27 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:34:25 -0600 From: Jarrett & Heidi Johnson Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto fuel To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-id: <001001c61ca9$3f324e30$6501a8c0@home> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_225gdmRPrUTUswAP/51cgQ)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_225gdmRPrUTUswAP/51cgQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Al, well with just a quick search, I can find it either :-) I'll have = to take a closer look, possibly back into the site archives. =20 I took a look at the link you provided and two things pop into mind when = I read it. #1 they are predominatly talking about thermoset plastics = with glass fiber re-enforcment. As of yet no-one not even Boeing is = building airframes with thermoset plastics. [At least not to my = knowledge] And the one time they tried to do it, they actually scrapped = a VERY expensive wing due to issues in the fiber and the resin [ = thermal-set resin] matrix. This was back during the JTF design/proto = type competition with Northrop [ Northrop ended up w/ the contract... = as an aside note]. #2 they talk about the resistance of Fiberglass to = corrosion and in its context it would seem that they are talking about = the glass fibers themselves which are resistant. This I totally agree = on, its the resin matrix which is/has and will cause us the many = problems we potentially can have with Fiberglass. [ No I'm not = anti-fiberglass, I'm currently building one :-) ] I'll do some more = in-depth searching and see it I can't find that email about all of this = wonderfull stuff.=20 Jarrett I'm unable to find anything to substantiate this water theory. If you = find something, let me know. Here's a pretty good link: -al wick http://www.fiberglasstankandpipe.com/tanks&pipe.htm Resistance to Aggressive Environments Resistance to corrosion in aggressive environments is one of the = primary reasons for specifying fiberglass tanks or piping. Typical types = of corrosion do not affect fiberglass. This would include galvanic, = aerobic, pitting and inter-granular corrosion which harms metals but not = fiberglass. Although fiberglass resists a wide range of chemicals and = temperatures, it requires the right design, fabrication and installation = to match the appropriate application. For example, fiberglass may be = subject to chemical attack from hydrolysis, oxidation, pyrolysis or = incompatible solutions. The proper resin/glass matrix will minimize = chemical attack.=20 On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:41:50 -0500 "rijakits" = writes: Al, I guess ( if it is not so, I apologize for the assumption and bring = into play myself :)), Jarrett wanted to point out the (possible) change = of properties of the Gas/Fuel/Water mix. I understand ( assume) that each by itself is less problematic. Mix Fuel with Alcohol and it starts to eat tanks, rubber, O-rings, = etc. Bring some water into the mix and the eating becomes a feast! Plain - it seems the alcohol makes the mix more agressive and water = does it again. Water and Fuel WITHOUT Alcohol doesn't seem to be a problem = (chemically...). So the question is: How much does Water aggravate the Fuel/Alcohol = problem? Thomas J. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: al p wick=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:12 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto fuel No, never heard that theory before. I've had auto fuel in my tanks = since day one. Alcohol has great affinity for water, real quick to = absorb it. That's how you test for alcohol content. Add water, swirl. So = that's the other less scientific test. -al wick On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:06:47 -0600 Heidi Johnson = writes: Al, were these experiments done at some point with some level of = water included in the fuel? It's my understanding that with water mixed = in it becomes an even bigger Bear to contain due to some chemical = reaction. Curious...but still building in Fiberglass... Jarrett Johnson > No, I wasn't speaking of polyester. You can buy epoxies of = different=20 > ratios. I'm told by expert (Gary Hunter) that all epoxies = which use=20 > ratios like 80/20 have significantly better mechanical and = chemical=20 > properties. This is measurable, and agrees with my and other = peoples=20 > tests. Like I say, I tested all of the fuel tank components in = various=20 > batches of alcohol fuel for years (you know how I don't like = design=20 > assumptions). None of the components were affected. The only = exception=20 > was when I exposed 50/50 epoxy mix to fuel. It slowly got = mushy.=20 >=20 > I have seen fuel tanks destroyed, leaking like a sieve from=20 > exposure to=20 > alcohol fuel. One reportedly had old version of proseal = inside. It=20 > completely peeled off tank inside. Clogged fuel port. Forced=20 > landing. If=20 > memory serves me correct, it also had poly that degraded by=20 > erosion. It=20 > looked like someone had etched the poly out of the tank.=20 >=20 >=20 > -al wick=20 > Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock=20 > Subaru 2.5=20 > N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon=20 > Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel=20 > design info:=20 > http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html=20 >=20 >=20 > On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:07:41 +1000 "george lendich"=20 > writes:=20 > Al,=20 > You must be speaking about Polyester as Epoxy must absolutely=20 > maintain a=20 > strict ration mix, as per manufacturers instructions, to allow = proper=20 > molecule to molecule bonding of the hardener and the resin.=20 > Polyester on=20 > the other hand has flexibility in that, more hardener promotes = > hardeningsooner.=20 > George (down under)=20 > I tested the hell out of that. No effect. Years of exposure to = > differentbatches of known alcohol. I understand that if you = use a=20 > resin of high=20 > proportions of hardener to resin, it's resistant. If you use=20 > 50/50, it=20 > isn't. I had 50/50 get soft from fuel exposure.=20 > This info consistent with all the other guys that did the same = test.=20 >=20 >=20 > -al wick=20 > Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock=20 > Subaru 2.5=20 > N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon=20 > Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel=20 > design info:=20 > http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html=20 >=20 > On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:21:34 -0600 "William" = =20 > writes:=20 > It will make it less attractive for those with fiberglass = tanks.=20 > Alcohol/gas mixes are more aggressive than either gas or = alcohol=20 > alone.Bill Schertz=20 > KIS Cruiser # 4045=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: John Downing=20 > To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:17 PM=20 > Subject: [FlyRotary] Auto fuel=20 >=20 >=20 > By the Farm Bureau Paper it is stated that Wisconsin has = passed a law=20 > that all 87 no lead will contain 10% alcohol and that nine = other=20 > statesare considering it. It didn't mention the other no lead = > grades. Here in=20 > Michigan it is under consideration at this time, and there is = a good=20 > chance it pass. Other than cutting the power some what, is = going to=20 > effect the operation of the rotary in some other way. JohnD=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -al wick=20 > Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock=20 > Subaru 2.5=20 > N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon=20 > Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel=20 > design info:=20 > http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html=20 >=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock = Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel = design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru = 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design = info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: = 1/18/2006 --Boundary_(ID_225gdmRPrUTUswAP/51cgQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Al, well with just a quick search, I can find it either :-)  I'll have to take a closer look, possibly back into the site archives. 
 
I took a look at the link you provided and two things pop into mind when I read it. #1 they are predominatly talking about thermoset plastics with glass fiber re-enforcment. As of yet no-one not even Boeing is building airframes with thermoset plastics. [At least not to my knowledge] And the one time they tried to do it, they actually scrapped a VERY expensive wing due to issues in the fiber and the resin [ thermal-set resin] matrix. This was back during the JTF design/proto type competition with Northrop [ Northrop ended up w/ the contract...  as an aside note]. #2 they talk about the resistance of Fiberglass to corrosion and in its context it would seem that they are talking about the glass fibers themselves which are resistant. This I totally agree on, its the resin matrix which is/has and will cause us the many problems we potentially can have with Fiberglass. [ No I'm not anti-fiberglass, I'm currently building one  :-)  ]  I'll do some more in-depth searching and see it I can't find that email about all of this wonderfull stuff.
 
 
Jarrett
 

I'm unable to find anything to substantiate this water theory.  If you find something, let me know. Here's a pretty good link:
 
-al wick
 
 
Resistance to Aggressive Environments

Resistance to corrosion in aggressive environments is one of the primary reasons for specifying fiberglass tanks or piping. Typical types of corrosion do not affect fiberglass. This would include galvanic, aerobic, pitting and inter-granular corrosion which harms metals but not fiberglass. Although fiberglass resists a wide range of chemicals and temperatures, it requires the right design, fabrication and installation to match the appropriate application. For example, fiberglass may be subject to chemical attack from hydrolysis, oxidation, pyrolysis or incompatible solutions. The proper resin/glass matrix will minimize chemical attack.
 
On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:41:50 -0500 "rijakits" <rijakits@cwpanama.net> writes:
Al,
 
I guess ( if it is not so, I apologize for the assumption and bring into play myself :)), Jarrett wanted to point out the (possible) change of properties of the Gas/Fuel/Water mix.
I understand ( assume) that each by itself is less problematic.
Mix Fuel with Alcohol and it starts to eat tanks, rubber, O-rings, etc.
Bring some water into the mix and the eating becomes a feast!
Plain - it seems the alcohol makes the mix more agressive and water does it again.
Water and Fuel WITHOUT Alcohol doesn't seem to be a problem (chemically...).
 
So the question is: How much does Water aggravate the Fuel/Alcohol problem?
 
Thomas J.
----- Original Message -----
From: al p wick
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:12 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto fuel

No, never heard that theory before. I've had auto fuel in my tanks since day one. Alcohol has great affinity for water, real quick to absorb it. That's how you test for alcohol content. Add water, swirl. So that's the other less scientific test.
 
-al wick
 
On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:06:47 -0600 Heidi Johnson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net> writes:

Al, were these experiments done at some point with some level of water included in the fuel? It's my understanding that with water mixed in it becomes an even bigger Bear to contain due to some chemical reaction.

Curious...but still building in Fiberglass...

Jarrett Johnson

> No, I wasn't speaking of polyester. You can buy epoxies of different
> ratios. I'm told by expert (Gary Hunter) that all epoxies which use
> ratios like 80/20 have significantly better mechanical and chemical
> properties. This is measurable, and agrees with my and other peoples
> tests. Like I say, I tested all of the fuel tank components in various
> batches of alcohol fuel for years (you know how I don't like design
> assumptions). None of the components were affected. The only exception
> was when I exposed 50/50 epoxy mix to fuel. It slowly got mushy.
>
> I have seen fuel tanks destroyed, leaking like a sieve from
> exposure to
> alcohol fuel. One reportedly had old version of proseal inside. It
> completely peeled off tank inside. Clogged fuel port. Forced
> landing. If
> memory serves me correct, it also had poly that degraded by
> erosion. It
> looked like someone had etched the poly out of the tank.
>
>
> -al wick
> Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock
> Subaru 2.5
> N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
> Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel
> design info:
> http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
>
>
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:07:41 +1000 "george lendich"
> <lendich@optusnet.com.au> writes:
> Al,
> You must be speaking about Polyester as Epoxy must absolutely
> maintain a
> strict ration mix, as per manufacturers instructions, to allow proper
> molecule to molecule bonding of the hardener and the resin.
> Polyester on
> the other hand has flexibility in that, more hardener promotes
> hardeningsooner.
> George (down under)
> I tested the hell out of that. No effect. Years of exposure to
> differentbatches of known alcohol. I understand that if you use a
> resin of high
> proportions of hardener to resin, it's resistant. If you use
> 50/50, it
> isn't. I had 50/50 get soft from fuel exposure.
> This info consistent with all the other guys that did the same test.
>
>
> -al wick
> Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock
> Subaru 2.5
> N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
> Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel
> design info:
> http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
>
> On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:21:34 -0600 "William" <wschertz@ispwest.com>
> writes:
> It will make it less attractive for those with fiberglass tanks.
> Alcohol/gas mixes are more aggressive than either gas or alcohol
> alone.Bill Schertz
> KIS Cruiser # 4045
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Downing
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:17 PM
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Auto fuel
>
>
> By the Farm Bureau Paper it is stated that Wisconsin has passed a law
> that all 87 no lead will contain 10% alcohol and that nine other
> statesare considering it.  It didn't mention the other no lead
> grades.  Here in
> Michigan it is under consideration at this time, and there is a good
> chance it pass.  Other than cutting the power some what, is going to
> effect the operation of the rotary in some other way.  JohnD
>
>
>
> -al wick
> Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock
> Subaru 2.5
> N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
> Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel
> design info:
> http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
> 

--

Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/

Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 1/18/2006
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