X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from m12.lax.untd.com ([64.136.30.75] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.6) with SMTP id 931897 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:16:49 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.30.75; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com Received: from m12.lax.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m12.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABB67RQ2AYXURG2 for (sender ); Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:14:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from alwick@juno.com) by m12.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id LE2F9KEX; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:12:05 PST To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:24:56 -0800 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto fuel Message-ID: <20060118.141054.1448.11.alwick@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=--__JNP_000_7cbb.1e76.043f X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8-6,14-15,19-20,22-28,30-31,33-34,38-42,45-46,48,50,53-57,62-63,68-77,79-80,85-86,90-99,101,103-112,118-133,134-32767 From: al p wick X-ContentStamp: 28:14:231422865 X-MAIL-INFO:29f3f3c76aea1e178b9e0fc7a30fae37634aca0fda135eaa6adaca4adab3dac3730a9a3af3fac7cbc78a6a93ae4e8e9317eace0adb976beea37a8e57aece977b47022b036fb30ebefebf2bf77f2e3fa31e0a87832b434e87379f5f3b77ef133b9f1393839f7ede02679b33aa3ad3af97afaeab234aaf5e1a9acaababcafe739a8b8ebb37deb74f270b1eae73ae7a339ef30fea8b8ed7ebebceeee7273f1b572f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkNabgSzt++xT30Gh1iO9eSVjhEfhjozoKg== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m12.lax.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_7cbb.1e76.043f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry I wasn't clear. There is a direct correlation of epoxy chemical resistance to the designed ratio for mixing. All epoxies that specify a 50/50 ratio are inferior to those that specify 80/20 for example. Likewise, all epoxies that are post cured with heat have substantially better chemical resistance. There are a bunch of us who have tested our epoxy to verify it's not sensitive to fuel type. All of us have had the same results....no problem. But I always encourage people to do the test themselves. Way better than making speculative decisions. Just put a chunk of each of your tank components in know alcohol fuel. Place in mason jar, lid on. In fact, use two mason jars, one with water in it also. Then every few months, replace the fuel with another batch. 6 years later, you will find the same thing we did. No effect. As someone else pointed out, I'm not saying to change the ratio. I agree, follow the recommended ratio. -al wick On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:02:05 +1000 "george lendich" writes: Al, Just so we are talking about the same thing here, I've asked some questions in the body of your e-mail. No, I wasn't speaking of polyester. You can buy epoxies of different ratios. I'm told by expert (Gary Hunter) that all epoxies which use ratios like 80/20 have significantly better mechanical and chemical properties. Better properties to what? 1. All epoxies uses strict ratios, as I explained! 2. The ratios are set by the manufacturers. 3. There are different quality Epoxy Resins - I agree, but the quality can't be quantified by the ratio of the resin to hardener alone, to my knowledge! 4. The dearer resins are quite obviously, better quality! 5. The Quality resins are those most often used in Aviation and there is comprehensive information available on structural strength etc. 6. If someone where to use a cheap Epoxy without researching it's properties - I would be very concerned. 7.Are you suggesting that people may use a cheaper (non structural) resin to line fuel tanks and my therefore see a break-down of the material sooner? George (down under) This is measurable, and agrees with my and other peoples tests. Like I say, I tested all of the fuel tank components in various batches of alcohol fuel for years (you know how I don't like design assumptions). None of the components were affected. The only exception was when I exposed 50/50 epoxy mix to fuel. It slowly got mushy. I have seen fuel tanks destroyed, leaking like a sieve from exposure to alcohol fuel. One reportedly had old version of proseal inside. It completely peeled off tank inside. Clogged fuel port. Forced landing. If memory serves me correct, it also had poly that degraded by erosion. It looked like someone had etched the poly out of the tank. -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:07:41 +1000 "george lendich" writes: Al, You must be speaking about Polyester as Epoxy must absolutely maintain a strict ration mix, as per manufacturers instructions, to allow proper molecule to molecule bonding of the hardener and the resin. Polyester on the other hand has flexibility in that, more hardener promotes hardening sooner. George (down under) I tested the hell out of that. No effect. Years of exposure to different batches of known alcohol. I understand that if you use a resin of high proportions of hardener to resin, it's resistant. If you use 50/50, it isn't. I had 50/50 get soft from fuel exposure. This info consistent with all the other guys that did the same test. -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:21:34 -0600 "William" writes: It will make it less attractive for those with fiberglass tanks. Alcohol/gas mixes are more aggressive than either gas or alcohol alone. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser # 4045 ----- Original Message ----- From: John Downing To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:17 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Auto fuel By the Farm Bureau Paper it is stated that Wisconsin has passed a law that all 87 no lead will contain 10% alcohol and that nine other states are considering it. It didn't mention the other no lead grades. Here in Michigan it is under consideration at this time, and there is a good chance it pass. Other than cutting the power some what, is going to effect the operation of the rotary in some other way. JohnD -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ----__JNP_000_7cbb.1e76.043f Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry I wasn't clear. There is a direct correlation of epoxy chemical= =20 resistance to the designed ratio for mixing. All epoxies that specify a 50/= 50=20 ratio are inferior to those that specify 80/20 for example. Likewise, all=20 epoxies that are post cured with heat have substantially better chemical=20 resistance. There are a bunch of us who have tested our epoxy to verify it'= s not=20 sensitive to fuel type. All of us have had the same results....no problem. = But I=20 always encourage people to do the test themselves. Way better than making=20 speculative decisions.
 
Just put a chunk of each of your tank components in know alcohol fuel.= =20 Place in mason jar, lid on. In fact, use two mason jars, one with water in = it=20 also. Then every few months, replace the fuel with another batch. 6 years = later,=20 you will find the same thing we did. No effect.
 
As someone else pointed out, I'm not saying to change the ratio. I = agree,=20 follow the recommended ratio.
 
-al wick
 
 
 
 
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:02:05 +1000 "george lendich" <lendich@optusnet.com.au>=20 writes:
Al,
Just so we are talking about the same = thing here,=20 I've asked some questions in the body of your e-mail.
No, I wasn't speaking of polyester. You can buy epoxies of different= =20 ratios. I'm told by expert (Gary Hunter) that all epoxies which use = ratios=20 like 80/20 have significantly better mechanical and chemical properties.= =20
 
Better = properties to=20 what?
1. All epoxies uses strict ratios, as I=20 explained!
2. The ratios are set by the=20 manufacturers.
3. There are different quality Epoxy Resins = - I=20 agree, but the quality can't be quantified by the ratio of the resin to= =20 hardener alone, to my knowledge! 
4. The dearer resins are quite obviously, = better=20 quality!
5. The Quality resins are those most often = used in=20 Aviation and there is comprehensive information available on = structural=20 strength etc.
6. If someone where to use a cheap = Epoxy=20 without researching it's properties - I would be very=20 concerned.
7.Are you suggesting that people may use a = cheaper=20 (non structural) resin to line fuel tanks and my therefore see a break-= down=20 of the material sooner?
 
George (down under)
 
 
This is measurable, and agrees with my and other peoples=20 tests. Like I say, I tested all of the fuel tank components = in=20 various batches of alcohol fuel for years (you know how I don't = like=20 design assumptions). None of the components were affected. The only=20 exception was when I exposed 50/50 epoxy mix to fuel. It slowly got = mushy.=20
 
I have seen fuel tanks destroyed, leaking like a sieve from = exposure to=20 alcohol fuel. One reportedly had old version of proseal inside. It=20 completely peeled off tank inside. Clogged fuel port. Forced=20 landing. If memory serves me correct, it also had poly that = degraded by=20 erosion. It looked like someone had etched the poly out of the tank.
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV = powered by=20 stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland,= =20 Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel= =20 design info:
= http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
 
On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:07:41 +1000 "george lendich" <lendich@optusnet.com.au>= =20 writes:
Al,
You must be speaking about Polyester= as Epoxy=20 must absolutely maintain a strict ration mix, as per = manufacturers=20 instructions, to allow proper molecule to molecule bonding = of=20 the hardener and the resin. Polyester on the other hand has = flexibility in=20 that, more hardener promotes hardening sooner.
George (down under)
I tested the hell out of that. No effect. Years of exposure to= =20 different batches of known alcohol. I understand that if you use a = resin=20 of high proportions of hardener to resin, it's resistant. If you = use=20 50/50, it isn't. I had 50/50 get soft from fuel exposure.
This info consistent with all the other guys that did the same= =20 test.
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV = powered=20 by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from=20 Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment= ,=20 Glass panel design=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.= html
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:21:34 -0600 "William" <wschertz@ispwest.com>=20 writes:
It will make it less attractive = for those=20 with fiberglass tanks. Alcohol/gas mixes are more aggressive than= =20 either gas or alcohol alone.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message ----- From:=20 John Downing
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Tuesday, January = 17, 2006=20 8:17 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Auto=20 fuel

By the Farm Bureau Paper it is= stated=20 that Wisconsin has passed a law that all 87 no lead will = contain 10%=20 alcohol and that nine other states are considering it.  It= =20 didn't mention the other no lead grades.  Here in Michigan= it=20 is under consideration at this time, and there is a good chance= it=20 pass.  Other than cutting the power some what, is going to= =20 effect the operation of the rotary in some other way. =20 JohnD
 
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence= in=20 cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on=20 engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install= ,=20 Risk assessment, Glass panel design=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html<= BR>
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in= =20 cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on=20 engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, = Risk=20 assessment, Glass panel design=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
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