X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from m12.lax.untd.com ([64.136.30.75] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.6) with SMTP id 931894 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:14:10 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.30.75; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com Received: from m12.lax.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m12.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABB67RMDALPVNK2 for (sender ); Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:12:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from alwick@juno.com) by m12.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id LE2F9KE2; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:12:05 PST To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:35:57 -0800 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto fuel Message-ID: <20060118.141054.1448.12.alwick@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=--__JNP_000_5310.1884.1aa0 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8-6,8-15,25-27,29-31,34-37,39,41-42,44-53,57-60,62,65-175,176-32767 From: al p wick X-ContentStamp: 2:2:852000619 X-MAIL-INFO: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 7d25398595417434059924308571d5a180f5b5f5a53160040d14c1058444443d4d29d52dcd81e0b02585096491ad00ada0f170703461ad50b051c0f97dc9b065 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkNj0EQCs6dinK05+Dxw+Iko= X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m12.lax.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_5310.1884.1aa0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm unable to find anything to substantiate this water theory. If you find something, let me know. Here's a pretty good link: -al wick http://www.fiberglasstankandpipe.com/tanks&pipe.htm Resistance to Aggressive Environments Resistance to corrosion in aggressive environments is one of the primary reasons for specifying fiberglass tanks or piping. Typical types of corrosion do not affect fiberglass. This would include galvanic, aerobic, pitting and inter-granular corrosion which harms metals but not fiberglass. Although fiberglass resists a wide range of chemicals and temperatures, it requires the right design, fabrication and installation to match the appropriate application. For example, fiberglass may be subject to chemical attack from hydrolysis, oxidation, pyrolysis or incompatible solutions. The proper resin/glass matrix will minimize chemical attack. On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:41:50 -0500 "rijakits" writes: Al, I guess ( if it is not so, I apologize for the assumption and bring into play myself :)), Jarrett wanted to point out the (possible) change of properties of the Gas/Fuel/Water mix. I understand ( assume) that each by itself is less problematic. Mix Fuel with Alcohol and it starts to eat tanks, rubber, O-rings, etc. Bring some water into the mix and the eating becomes a feast! Plain - it seems the alcohol makes the mix more agressive and water does it again. Water and Fuel WITHOUT Alcohol doesn't seem to be a problem (chemically...). So the question is: How much does Water aggravate the Fuel/Alcohol problem? Thomas J. ----- Original Message ----- From: al p wick To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:12 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto fuel No, never heard that theory before. I've had auto fuel in my tanks since day one. Alcohol has great affinity for water, real quick to absorb it. That's how you test for alcohol content. Add water, swirl. So that's the other less scientific test. -al wick On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:06:47 -0600 Heidi Johnson writes: Al, were these experiments done at some point with some level of water included in the fuel? It's my understanding that with water mixed in it becomes an even bigger Bear to contain due to some chemical reaction. Curious...but still building in Fiberglass... Jarrett Johnson > No, I wasn't speaking of polyester. You can buy epoxies of different > ratios. I'm told by expert (Gary Hunter) that all epoxies which use > ratios like 80/20 have significantly better mechanical and chemical > properties. This is measurable, and agrees with my and other peoples > tests. Like I say, I tested all of the fuel tank components in various > batches of alcohol fuel for years (you know how I don't like design > assumptions). None of the components were affected. The only exception > was when I exposed 50/50 epoxy mix to fuel. It slowly got mushy. > > I have seen fuel tanks destroyed, leaking like a sieve from > exposure to > alcohol fuel. One reportedly had old version of proseal inside. It > completely peeled off tank inside. Clogged fuel port. Forced > landing. If > memory serves me correct, it also had poly that degraded by > erosion. It > looked like someone had etched the poly out of the tank. > > > -al wick > Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock > Subaru 2.5 > N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon > Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel > design info: > http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html > > > On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:07:41 +1000 "george lendich" > writes: > Al, > You must be speaking about Polyester as Epoxy must absolutely > maintain a > strict ration mix, as per manufacturers instructions, to allow proper > molecule to molecule bonding of the hardener and the resin. > Polyester on > the other hand has flexibility in that, more hardener promotes > hardeningsooner. > George (down under) > I tested the hell out of that. No effect. Years of exposure to > differentbatches of known alcohol. I understand that if you use a > resin of high > proportions of hardener to resin, it's resistant. If you use > 50/50, it > isn't. I had 50/50 get soft from fuel exposure. > This info consistent with all the other guys that did the same test. > > > -al wick > Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock > Subaru 2.5 > N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon > Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel > design info: > http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html > > On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:21:34 -0600 "William" > writes: > It will make it less attractive for those with fiberglass tanks. > Alcohol/gas mixes are more aggressive than either gas or alcohol > alone.Bill Schertz > KIS Cruiser # 4045 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Downing > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:17 PM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Auto fuel > > > By the Farm Bureau Paper it is stated that Wisconsin has passed a law > that all 87 no lead will contain 10% alcohol and that nine other > statesare considering it. It didn't mention the other no lead > grades. Here in > Michigan it is under consideration at this time, and there is a good > chance it pass. Other than cutting the power some what, is going to > effect the operation of the rotary in some other way. JohnD > > > > -al wick > Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock > Subaru 2.5 > N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon > Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel > design info: > http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html > -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ----__JNP_000_5310.1884.1aa0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm unable to find anything to substantiate this water=20 theory.  If you find something, let me know. Here's a pretty good= =20 link:
 
-al wick
 
http://www= .fiberglasstankandpipe.com/tanks&pipe.htm
 
Resistance to Aggressive Environments

= Resistance to=20 corrosion in aggressive environments is one of the primary reasons for=20 specifying fiberglass tanks or piping. Typical types of corrosion do not = affect=20 fiberglass. This would include galvanic, aerobic, pitting and inter-= granular=20 corrosion which harms metals but not fiberglass. Although fiberglass = resists a=20 wide range of chemicals and temperatures, it requires the right design,=20 fabrication and installation to match the appropriate application. For = example,=20 fiberglass may be subject to chemical attack from hydrolysis, oxidation,=20 pyrolysis or incompatible solutions. The proper resin/glass matrix will = minimize=20 chemical attack.
 
On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:41:50 -0500 "rijakits" <rijakits@cwpanama.net> writes:=
Al,
 
I guess ( if it is not so, I apologize for the=20 assumption and bring into play myself :)), Jarrett wanted to point out = the=20 (possible) change of properties of the Gas/Fuel/Water mix.
I understand ( assume) that each by itself is = less=20 problematic.
Mix Fuel with Alcohol and it starts to eat tanks,= =20 rubber, O-rings, etc.
Bring some water into the mix and the eating = becomes a=20 feast!
Plain - it seems the alcohol makes the mix more=20 agressive and water does it again.
Water and Fuel WITHOUT Alcohol doesn't seem to be= a=20 problem (chemically...).
 
So the question is: How much does Water aggravate= the=20 Fuel/Alcohol problem?
 
Thomas J.
----- Original Message -----
= From:=20 al p wick
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, = 2006 10:12=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto=20 fuel

No, never heard that theory before. I've had auto fuel in my tanks= =20 since day one. Alcohol has great affinity for water, real quick to = absorb=20 it. That's how you test for alcohol content. Add water, swirl. So that'= s the=20 other less scientific test.
 
-al wick
 

Al, were these experiments done at some point with some level of = water=20 included in the fuel? It's my understanding that with water mixed in = it=20 becomes an even bigger Bear to contain due to some chemical reaction.=

Curious...but still building in Fiberglass...

Jarrett Johnson

> No, I wasn't speaking of polyester. You can buy epoxies of=20 different
> ratios. I'm told by expert (Gary Hunter) that all= =20 epoxies which use
> ratios like 80/20 have significantly = better=20 mechanical and chemical
> properties. This is measurable, and= =20 agrees with my and other peoples
> tests. Like I say, I tested= all=20 of the fuel tank components in various
> batches of alcohol = fuel=20 for years (you know how I don't like design
> assumptions). = None of=20 the components were affected. The only exception
> was when I= =20 exposed 50/50 epoxy mix to fuel. It slowly got mushy.
>
&= gt; I=20 have seen fuel tanks destroyed, leaking like a sieve from
>=20 exposure to
> alcohol fuel. One reportedly had old version of= =20 proseal inside. It
> completely peeled off tank inside. = Clogged=20 fuel port. Forced
> landing. If
> memory serves me = correct,=20 it also had poly that degraded by
> erosion. It
> = looked=20 like someone had etched the poly out of the tank.
>
>=20
> -al wick
> Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy = IV=20 powered by stock
> Subaru 2.5
> N9032U 200+ hours on=20 engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
> Prop construct, Subaru= =20 install, Risk assessment, Glass panel
> design info:
>= =20 http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
>= =20
>
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:07:41 +1000 "george lendich"= =20
> <lendich@optusnet.com.au> writes:
> Al,
>= ; You=20 must be speaking about Polyester as Epoxy must absolutely
>=20 maintain a
> strict ration mix, as per manufacturers = instructions,=20 to allow proper
> molecule to molecule bonding of the hardener= and=20 the resin.
> Polyester on
> the other hand has = flexibility=20 in that, more hardener promotes
> hardeningsooner.
> = George=20 (down under)
> I tested the hell out of that. No effect. Years= of=20 exposure to
> differentbatches of known alcohol. I understand = that=20 if you use a
> resin of high
> proportions of hardener = to=20 resin, it's resistant. If you use
> 50/50, it
> isn't. = I had=20 50/50 get soft from fuel exposure.
> This info consistent with= all=20 the other guys that did the same test.
>
>
> -al= wick=20
> Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock= =20
> Subaru 2.5
> N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe = from=20 Portland, Oregon
> Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk = assessment,=20 Glass panel
> design info:
>=20 http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
>= =20
> On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:21:34 -0600 "William"=20 <wschertz@ispwest.com>
> writes:
> It will make = it=20 less attractive for those with fiberglass tanks.
> Alcohol/gas= =20 mixes are more aggressive than either gas or alcohol
> alone.= Bill=20 Schertz
> KIS Cruiser # 4045
> ----- Original Message -= ----=20
> From: John Downing
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:17 PM
> Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Auto fuel
>
>
> By the Farm Bureau = Paper=20 it is stated that Wisconsin has passed a law
> that all 87 no = lead=20 will contain 10% alcohol and that nine other
> statesare=20 considering it.  It didn't mention the other no lead
>=20 grades.  Here in
> Michigan it is under consideration at = this=20 time, and there is a good
> chance it pass.  Other than=20 cutting the power some what, is going to
> effect the = operation of=20 the rotary in some other way.  JohnD
>
>
>= =20
> -al wick
> Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy = IV=20 powered by stock
> Subaru 2.5
> N9032U 200+ hours on=20 engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
> Prop construct, Subaru= =20 install, Risk assessment, Glass panel
> design info:
>= =20 http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
>= 

--

Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/

Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence= in=20 cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on=20 engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install= ,=20 Risk assessment, Glass panel design=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html<= BR>
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in= =20 cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on=20 engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, = Risk=20 assessment, Glass panel design=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
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