X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail26.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.133.167] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.6) with ESMTPS id 931807 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:02:55 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.133.167; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d220-236-170-90.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.236.170.90]) by mail26.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id k0IL20Al014363 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:02:05 +1100 Message-ID: <001901c61c72$70999280$5aaaecdc@george> From: "george lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto fuel Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:02:05 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C61CC6.415A5820" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C61CC6.415A5820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al, Just so we are talking about the same thing here, I've asked some = questions in the body of your e-mail. No, I wasn't speaking of polyester. You can buy epoxies of different = ratios. I'm told by expert (Gary Hunter) that all epoxies which use = ratios like 80/20 have significantly better mechanical and chemical = properties.=20 Better properties to what? 1. All epoxies uses strict ratios, as I explained! 2. The ratios are set by the manufacturers. 3. There are different quality Epoxy Resins - I agree, but the quality = can't be quantified by the ratio of the resin to hardener alone, to my = knowledge!=20 4. The dearer resins are quite obviously, better quality! 5. The Quality resins are those most often used in Aviation and there = is comprehensive information available on structural strength etc. 6. If someone where to use a cheap Epoxy without researching it's = properties - I would be very concerned. 7.Are you suggesting that people may use a cheaper (non structural) = resin to line fuel tanks and my therefore see a break-down of the = material sooner? George (down under) This is measurable, and agrees with my and other peoples tests. Like I = say, I tested all of the fuel tank components in various batches of = alcohol fuel for years (you know how I don't like design assumptions). = None of the components were affected. The only exception was when I = exposed 50/50 epoxy mix to fuel. It slowly got mushy.=20 I have seen fuel tanks destroyed, leaking like a sieve from exposure = to alcohol fuel. One reportedly had old version of proseal inside. It = completely peeled off tank inside. Clogged fuel port. Forced landing. If = memory serves me correct, it also had poly that degraded by erosion. It = looked like someone had etched the poly out of the tank.=20 -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru = 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design = info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:07:41 +1000 "george lendich" = writes: Al, You must be speaking about Polyester as Epoxy must absolutely = maintain a strict ration mix, as per manufacturers instructions, to = allow proper molecule to molecule bonding of the hardener and the resin. = Polyester on the other hand has flexibility in that, more hardener = promotes hardening sooner. George (down under) I tested the hell out of that. No effect. Years of exposure to = different batches of known alcohol. I understand that if you use a resin = of high proportions of hardener to resin, it's resistant. If you use = 50/50, it isn't. I had 50/50 get soft from fuel exposure. This info consistent with all the other guys that did the same = test. -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock = Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel = design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:21:34 -0600 "William" = writes: It will make it less attractive for those with fiberglass tanks. = Alcohol/gas mixes are more aggressive than either gas or alcohol alone. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser # 4045 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Downing=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:17 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Auto fuel By the Farm Bureau Paper it is stated that Wisconsin has = passed a law that all 87 no lead will contain 10% alcohol and that nine = other states are considering it. It didn't mention the other no lead = grades. Here in Michigan it is under consideration at this time, and = there is a good chance it pass. Other than cutting the power some what, = is going to effect the operation of the rotary in some other way. JohnD -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru = 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design = info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C61CC6.415A5820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,
Just so we are talking about the same = thing here,=20 I've asked some questions in the body of your e-mail.
No, I wasn't speaking of polyester. You can buy epoxies of = different=20 ratios. I'm told by expert (Gary Hunter) that all epoxies which use = ratios like=20 80/20 have significantly better mechanical and chemical properties. =
 
Better = properties to=20 what?
1. All epoxies uses strict ratios, as I=20 explained!
2. The ratios are set by the=20 manufacturers.
3. There are different quality Epoxy Resins = - I=20 agree, but the quality can't be quantified by the ratio of the resin = to=20 hardener alone, to my knowledge! 
4. The dearer resins are quite obviously, = better=20 quality!
5. The Quality resins are those most often = used in=20 Aviation and there is comprehensive information available on = structural=20 strength etc.
6. If someone where to use a = cheap Epoxy without=20 researching it's properties - I would be very concerned.
7.Are you suggesting that people may use a = cheaper=20 (non structural) resin to line fuel tanks and my therefore see a = break-down of=20 the material sooner?
 
George (down under)
 
 
This is measurable, and agrees with my and other peoples = tests. Like=20 I say, I tested all of the fuel tank components in various = batches=20 of alcohol fuel for years (you know how I don't like design = assumptions).=20 None of the components were affected. The only exception was when I = exposed=20 50/50 epoxy mix to fuel. It slowly got mushy.
 
I have seen fuel tanks destroyed, leaking like a sieve from = exposure to=20 alcohol fuel. One reportedly had old version of proseal inside. It = completely=20 peeled off tank inside. Clogged fuel port. Forced landing. If = memory=20 serves me correct, it also had poly that degraded by erosion. It = looked like=20 someone had etched the poly out of the tank.
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV = powered by=20 stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from = Portland,=20 Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel = design=20 info:
htt= p://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
 
On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:07:41 +1000 "george lendich" <lendich@optusnet.com.au>=20 writes:
Al,
You must be speaking about = Polyester as Epoxy=20 must absolutely maintain a strict ration mix, as = per manufacturers=20 instructions, to allow proper molecule to molecule bonding = of the=20 hardener and the resin. Polyester on the other hand has flexibility = in that,=20 more hardener promotes hardening sooner.
George (down under)
I tested the hell out of that. No effect. Years of exposure = to=20 different batches of known alcohol. I understand that if you use a = resin=20 of high proportions of hardener to resin, it's resistant. If you = use=20 50/50, it isn't. I had 50/50 get soft from fuel exposure.
This info consistent with all the other guys that did the = same=20 test.
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV = powered=20 by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from = Portland,=20 Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass = panel=20 design=20 = info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
=
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:21:34 -0600 "William" <wschertz@ispwest.com>=20 writes:
It will make it less attractive = for those=20 with fiberglass tanks. Alcohol/gas mixes are more aggressive = than either=20 gas or alcohol alone.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 John Downing =
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Tuesday, January = 17, 2006=20 8:17 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Auto=20 fuel

By the Farm Bureau Paper it = is stated=20 that Wisconsin has passed a law that all 87 no lead will = contain 10%=20 alcohol and that nine other states are considering it.  = It didn't=20 mention the other no lead grades.  Here in Michigan it is = under=20 consideration at this time, and there is a good chance it = pass. =20 Other than cutting the power some what, is going to effect the = operation of the rotary in some other way. =20 JohnD
 
 

-al wick
Artificial = intelligence in=20 cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on=20 engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru = install, Risk=20 assessment, Glass panel design=20 = info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
= ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C61CC6.415A5820--