X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [201.225.225.167] (HELO cwpanama.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.6) with ESMTP id 931398 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:42:43 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=201.225.225.167; envelope-from=rijakits@cwpanama.net Received: from [201.224.93.110] (HELO usuarioq3efog0) by frontend1.cwpanama.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with SMTP id 57967639 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:47:01 -0500 Message-ID: <001701c61c45$b3052da0$6e5de0c9@usuarioq3efog0> From: "rijakits" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto fuel Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:41:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C61C1B.C9CD5690" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C61C1B.C9CD5690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al, I guess ( if it is not so, I apologize for the assumption and bring into play myself :)), Jarrett wanted to point out the (possible) change of properties of the Gas/Fuel/Water mix. I understand ( assume) that each by itself is less problematic. Mix Fuel with Alcohol and it starts to eat tanks, rubber, O-rings, etc. Bring some water into the mix and the eating becomes a feast! Plain - it seems the alcohol makes the mix more agressive and water does it again. Water and Fuel WITHOUT Alcohol doesn't seem to be a problem (chemically...). So the question is: How much does Water aggravate the Fuel/Alcohol problem? Thomas J. ----- Original Message ----- From: al p wick To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:12 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto fuel No, never heard that theory before. I've had auto fuel in my tanks since day one. Alcohol has great affinity for water, real quick to absorb it. That's how you test for alcohol content. Add water, swirl. So that's the other less scientific test. -al wick On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:06:47 -0600 Heidi Johnson writes: Al, were these experiments done at some point with some level of water included in the fuel? It's my understanding that with water mixed in it becomes an even bigger Bear to contain due to some chemical reaction. Curious...but still building in Fiberglass... Jarrett Johnson > No, I wasn't speaking of polyester. You can buy epoxies of different > ratios. I'm told by expert (Gary Hunter) that all epoxies which use > ratios like 80/20 have significantly better mechanical and chemical > properties. This is measurable, and agrees with my and other peoples > tests. Like I say, I tested all of the fuel tank components in various > batches of alcohol fuel for years (you know how I don't like design > assumptions). None of the components were affected. The only exception > was when I exposed 50/50 epoxy mix to fuel. It slowly got mushy. > > I have seen fuel tanks destroyed, leaking like a sieve from > exposure to > alcohol fuel. One reportedly had old version of proseal inside. It > completely peeled off tank inside. Clogged fuel port. Forced > landing. If > memory serves me correct, it also had poly that degraded by > erosion. It > looked like someone had etched the poly out of the tank. > > > -al wick > Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock > Subaru 2.5 > N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon > Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel > design info: > http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html > > > On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:07:41 +1000 "george lendich" > writes: > Al, > You must be speaking about Polyester as Epoxy must absolutely > maintain a > strict ration mix, as per manufacturers instructions, to allow proper > molecule to molecule bonding of the hardener and the resin. > Polyester on > the other hand has flexibility in that, more hardener promotes > hardeningsooner. > George (down under) > I tested the hell out of that. No effect. Years of exposure to > differentbatches of known alcohol. I understand that if you use a > resin of high > proportions of hardener to resin, it's resistant. If you use > 50/50, it > isn't. I had 50/50 get soft from fuel exposure. > This info consistent with all the other guys that did the same test. > > > -al wick > Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock > Subaru 2.5 > N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon > Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel > design info: > http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html > > On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:21:34 -0600 "William" > writes: > It will make it less attractive for those with fiberglass tanks. > Alcohol/gas mixes are more aggressive than either gas or alcohol > alone.Bill Schertz > KIS Cruiser # 4045 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Downing > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:17 PM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Auto fuel > > > By the Farm Bureau Paper it is stated that Wisconsin has passed a law > that all 87 no lead will contain 10% alcohol and that nine other > statesare considering it. It didn't mention the other no lead > grades. Here in > Michigan it is under consideration at this time, and there is a good > chance it pass. Other than cutting the power some what, is going to > effect the operation of the rotary in some other way. JohnD > > > > -al wick > Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock > Subaru 2.5 > N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon > Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel > design info: > http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html > -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C61C1B.C9CD5690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,
 
I guess ( if it is not so, I apologize for the = assumption=20 and bring into play myself :)), Jarrett wanted to point out the = (possible)=20 change of properties of the Gas/Fuel/Water mix.
I understand ( assume) that each by itself is = less=20 problematic.
Mix Fuel with Alcohol and it starts to eat = tanks, rubber,=20 O-rings, etc.
Bring some water into the mix and the eating = becomes a=20 feast!
Plain - it seems the alcohol makes the mix more = agressive=20 and water does it again.
Water and Fuel WITHOUT Alcohol doesn't seem to = be a=20 problem (chemically...).
 
So the question is: How much does Water = aggravate the=20 Fuel/Alcohol problem?
 
Thomas J.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 al p = wick
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, = 2006 10:12=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto = fuel

No, never heard that theory before. I've had auto fuel in my = tanks since=20 day one. Alcohol has great affinity for water, real quick to absorb = it. That's=20 how you test for alcohol content. Add water, swirl. So that's the = other less=20 scientific test.
 
-al wick
 
On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:06:47 -0600 Heidi Johnson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net>=20 writes:

Al, were these experiments done at some point with some level of = water=20 included in the fuel? It's my understanding that with water mixed in = it=20 becomes an even bigger Bear to contain due to some chemical = reaction.

Curious...but still building in Fiberglass...

Jarrett Johnson

> No, I wasn't speaking of polyester. You can buy epoxies of = different=20
> ratios. I'm told by expert (Gary Hunter) that all epoxies = which use=20
> ratios like 80/20 have significantly better mechanical and = chemical=20
> properties. This is measurable, and agrees with my and = other=20 peoples
> tests. Like I say, I tested all of the fuel tank = components=20 in various
> batches of alcohol fuel for years (you know how = I don't=20 like design
> assumptions). None of the components were = affected. The=20 only exception
> was when I exposed 50/50 epoxy mix to fuel. = It=20 slowly got mushy.
>
> I have seen fuel tanks = destroyed,=20 leaking like a sieve from
> exposure to
> alcohol = fuel. One=20 reportedly had old version of proseal inside. It
> completely = peeled=20 off tank inside. Clogged fuel port. Forced
> landing. If =
>=20 memory serves me correct, it also had poly that degraded by
> = erosion. It
> looked like someone had etched the poly out of = the=20 tank.
>
>
> -al wick
> Artificial = intelligence=20 in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock
> Subaru 2.5
> = N9032U=20 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
> Prop = construct,=20 Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel
> design info: =
>=20 http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html =
>=20
>
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:07:41 +1000 "george = lendich"=20
> <lendich@optusnet.com.au> writes:
> Al, =
> You=20 must be speaking about Polyester as Epoxy must absolutely
> = maintain=20 a
> strict ration mix, as per manufacturers instructions, to = allow=20 proper
> molecule to molecule bonding of the hardener and the = resin.=20
> Polyester on
> the other hand has flexibility in = that, more=20 hardener promotes
> hardeningsooner.
> George (down = under)=20
> I tested the hell out of that. No effect. Years of exposure = to=20
> differentbatches of known alcohol. I understand that if you = use a=20
> resin of high
> proportions of hardener to resin, = it's=20 resistant. If you use
> 50/50, it
> isn't. I had 50/50 = get=20 soft from fuel exposure.
> This info consistent with all the = other=20 guys that did the same test.
>
>
> -al wick =
>=20 Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock =
> Subaru=20 2.5
> N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, = Oregon=20
> Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass = panel=20
> design info:
>=20 http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html =
>=20
> On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:21:34 -0600 "William"=20 <wschertz@ispwest.com>
> writes:
> It will make = it less=20 attractive for those with fiberglass tanks.
> Alcohol/gas = mixes are=20 more aggressive than either gas or alcohol
> alone.Bill = Schertz=20
> KIS Cruiser # 4045
> ----- Original Message ----- =
>=20 From: John Downing
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> = Sent:=20 Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:17 PM
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Auto = fuel=20
>
>
> By the Farm Bureau Paper it is stated = that=20 Wisconsin has passed a law
> that all 87 no lead will contain = 10%=20 alcohol and that nine other
> statesare considering it.  = It=20 didn't mention the other no lead
> grades.  Here in =
>=20 Michigan it is under consideration at this time, and there is a good =
> chance it pass.  Other than cutting the power some = what, is=20 going to
> effect the operation of the rotary in some other=20 way.  JohnD
>
>
>
> -al wick =
>=20 Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock =
> Subaru=20 2.5
> N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, = Oregon=20
> Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass = panel=20
> design info:
>=20 http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html =
> 

--

Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/

Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
 

-al wick
Artificial = intelligence in=20 cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on=20 engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru = install, Risk=20 assessment, Glass panel design=20 = info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
= ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C61C1B.C9CD5690--