X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from m12.lax.untd.com ([64.136.30.75] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.6) with SMTP id 931333 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:50:50 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.30.75; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com Received: from m12.lax.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m12.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABB66XMYASVCPKJ for (sender ); Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:49:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from alwick@juno.com) by m12.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id LEZNVYUU; Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:48:51 PST To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:47:55 -0800 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto fuel Message-ID: <20060118.064803.1448.1.alwick@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=--__JNP_000_1960.1119.4b94 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8-6,14-15,20-29,31-32,37-38,42-51,53,55-64,70-77,78-32767 From: al p wick X-ContentStamp: 7:3:2674346317 X-MAIL-INFO:2ffdfdb42da494993154d1b4d4d1f44449f961d159e9e5e02d5961f9597d59517538f1b0fd8db450b4a92dd0f4c16dd099a4c438700065ddd4456d89f4c4001539747925857d9d905d047920196081d494384d0d79d9c14d4464350529a5e90564e9d00d64cdf07411d584e0b0e1ad00adf4e4b5f9ade5a0f161e4e4615d75f1316d1044f0c924401d94f475f4458454fdd1a4316d412121c4dd304081558934 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkFX78KAoV8YFR3+tiMVkKrjSndc15xqXww== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m12.lax.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_1960.1119.4b94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, I wasn't speaking of polyester. You can buy epoxies of different ratios. I'm told by expert (Gary Hunter) that all epoxies which use ratios like 80/20 have significantly better mechanical and chemical properties. This is measurable, and agrees with my and other peoples tests. Like I say, I tested all of the fuel tank components in various batches of alcohol fuel for years (you know how I don't like design assumptions). None of the components were affected. The only exception was when I exposed 50/50 epoxy mix to fuel. It slowly got mushy. I have seen fuel tanks destroyed, leaking like a sieve from exposure to alcohol fuel. One reportedly had old version of proseal inside. It completely peeled off tank inside. Clogged fuel port. Forced landing. If memory serves me correct, it also had poly that degraded by erosion. It looked like someone had etched the poly out of the tank. -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:07:41 +1000 "george lendich" writes: Al, You must be speaking about Polyester as Epoxy must absolutely maintain a strict ration mix, as per manufacturers instructions, to allow proper molecule to molecule bonding of the hardener and the resin. Polyester on the other hand has flexibility in that, more hardener promotes hardening sooner. George (down under) I tested the hell out of that. No effect. Years of exposure to different batches of known alcohol. I understand that if you use a resin of high proportions of hardener to resin, it's resistant. If you use 50/50, it isn't. I had 50/50 get soft from fuel exposure. This info consistent with all the other guys that did the same test. -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:21:34 -0600 "William" writes: It will make it less attractive for those with fiberglass tanks. Alcohol/gas mixes are more aggressive than either gas or alcohol alone. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser # 4045 ----- Original Message ----- From: John Downing To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:17 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Auto fuel By the Farm Bureau Paper it is stated that Wisconsin has passed a law that all 87 no lead will contain 10% alcohol and that nine other states are considering it. It didn't mention the other no lead grades. Here in Michigan it is under consideration at this time, and there is a good chance it pass. Other than cutting the power some what, is going to effect the operation of the rotary in some other way. JohnD -al wick Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5 N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ----__JNP_000_1960.1119.4b94 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No, I wasn't speaking of polyester. You can buy epoxies of different=20 ratios. I'm told by expert (Gary Hunter) that all epoxies which use ratios = like=20 80/20 have significantly better mechanical and chemical properties. This is= =20 measurable, and agrees with my and other peoples tests. Like I say, I= =20 tested all of the fuel tank components in various batches of = alcohol=20 fuel for years (you know how I don't like design assumptions). None of the= =20 components were affected. The only exception was when I exposed 50/50 epoxy= mix=20 to fuel. It slowly got mushy.
 
I have seen fuel tanks destroyed, leaking like a sieve from exposure = to=20 alcohol fuel. One reportedly had old version of proseal inside. It = completely=20 peeled off tank inside. Clogged fuel port. Forced landing. If memory = serves=20 me correct, it also had poly that degraded by erosion. It looked like = someone=20 had etched the poly out of the tank.
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by= =20 stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland,=20 Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel = design=20 info:
http:= //www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
 
On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:07:41 +1000 "george lendich" <lendich@optusnet.com.au>=20 writes:
Al,
You must be speaking about Polyester as = Epoxy=20 must absolutely maintain a strict ration mix, as per manufacturers=20 instructions, to allow proper molecule to molecule bonding of = the=20 hardener and the resin. Polyester on the other hand has flexibility in = that,=20 more hardener promotes hardening sooner.
George (down under)
I tested the hell out of that. No effect. Years of exposure to=20 different batches of known alcohol. I understand that if you use a = resin of=20 high proportions of hardener to resin, it's resistant. If you use 50/50= , it=20 isn't. I had 50/50 get soft from fuel exposure.
This info consistent with all the other guys that did the same=20 test.
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV = powered by=20 stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland,= =20 Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel= =20 design=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html<= BR>
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:21:34 -0600 "William" <wschertz@ispwest.com>=20 writes:
It will make it less attractive for = those=20 with fiberglass tanks. Alcohol/gas mixes are more aggressive than = either=20 gas or alcohol alone.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message -----
= From:=20 John Downing
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, = 2006=20 8:17 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Auto=20 fuel

By the Farm Bureau Paper it is = stated that=20 Wisconsin has passed a law that all 87 no lead will contain 10% = alcohol=20 and that nine other states are considering it.  It didn't = mention=20 the other no lead grades.  Here in Michigan it is under=20 consideration at this time, and there is a good chance it pass.&= nbsp;=20 Other than cutting the power some what, is going to effect the = operation=20 of the rotary in some other way.  JohnD
 
 

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in= =20 cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on=20 engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, = Risk=20 assessment, Glass panel design=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
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