X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com ([205.188.144.208] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.6) with ESMTP id 919426 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 09 Jan 2006 19:03:33 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.144.208; envelope-from=BMears9413@aol.com Received: from BMears9413@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r6.3.) id q.205.10431932 (15863) for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2006 19:02:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mblk-d38 (mblk-d38.mblk.aol.com [205.188.212.222]) by air-id06.mx.aol.com (v108_r1_b1.2) with ESMTP id MAILINID62-3df743c2f99b2b6; Mon, 09 Jan 2006 19:02:35 -0500 Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 19:02:35 -0500 Message-Id: <8C7E3904BA85ED4-8D0-AD47@mblk-d38.sysops.aol.com> From: bmears9413@aol.com References: Received: from 64.185.0.35 by mblk-d38.sysops.aol.com (205.188.212.222) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Mon, 09 Jan 2006 19:02:35 -0500 X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AOL WebMail 15106 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Frozen coolant... Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MailBlocks_8C7E3904B97AE65_8D0_A415_mblk-d38.sysops.aol.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net X-AOL-IP: 205.188.212.222 X-Spam-Flag: NO ----------MailBlocks_8C7E3904B97AE65_8D0_A415_mblk-d38.sysops.aol.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dave, I've actually seen a rotary freeze. And the owner had drained the block. What we discovered is water will stand in the bottom of the cast iron housings, below the freeze plugs. When it freezes it actually cracked the cast iron and pushed inside the rotor chamber. That was the end of that motor. So if yours even turns over, its probably ok. By the way, most people dont realize, those freeze plugs in all engines really are not for freeze protection. They're casting hole plugs. With any luck they will push out if it freezes, so we call them freeze plugs Bob Mears -----Original Message----- From: Echo Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher) To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:15:13 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Frozen coolant... Dave I agree with Bill & Barry, if that mix & temp is accurate you won't have a loose frost plug. Put a blanket over the cowl & heat up with a propane heater ( be patient, give the engine a chance to get above freezing). Apply pressure to your cooling system, check for external leaks & loosen the oil pan drain plug. If you don't have any sign of coolant at the plug you should be OK. Georges B. (Canada) -------Original Message------- From: William Date: 01/09/06 06:52:55 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Frozen coolant... I would like to support Barry's observation. If you truly had 25/75 mix, and the temp dropped to the 20's, the most the coolant would have likely done is to turn to a slush that doesn't generate the massive forces that ice generates. Checking for the previous leak is certainly a good idea. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser # 4045 ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Gardner To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 6:00 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Frozen coolant... Dave, You might be too pessimistic. Glycol/water in a 25/75 mix is supposed to protect down to 15 degrees, according to tables I looked up. Low 20's shouldn't have been a problem. Even near the transition point, the mix turns slushy before freezing solid. Nonetheless, you've obviously got a leak somewhere. Just don't assume the worst until you've confirmed it's true. Is your recent leak fix still holding? First place I'd look. Pressurizing the system is a good idea. Auto parts stores like Autozone will lend you the coolant system pressure tester that fits in standard radiator cap openings. Pressurize and see where it leaks. You can also dump in a UV dye indicator (I've bought it at NAPA), run the engine briefly and then look for the leak using a black light. I've used both the pressure tester and UV dye. Sorry about your troubles. Barry Gardner Wheaton, IL David Leonard wrote: I flew to Mammoth this weekend for some snow boarding. Has a great time, and was 210 kts GS on the way up. Parked the plane for two nights and came back out this afternoon for the flight home. But there was a small puddle of coolant under the engine... and it was still dripping. Then I remembered. I recently sprung a leak in a cooling line - while away from home. After fixing the leak I used tap water to refill what coolant had been lost - about a gallon. I had forgotten all about that on this latest trip... to the mountains. I figure the antifreeze level was now down to about 25/75 and the overnight temps in the low 20's did the job. I had to concentrate on getting back home for work tomorrow so I couldn't do much. I couldn't even take off the lower cowl. I suspect the radiator is cracked somewhere. Anyone have any experience with this sort of thing? Can this do damage to the engine block? The radiator is custom and will not be cheap to replace, and it will take a while, and the plane is an 8 hour drive away... :-( -- Dave Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ ----------MailBlocks_8C7E3904B97AE65_8D0_A415_mblk-d38.sysops.aol.com Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Dave,
 
I've actually seen a rotary freeze. And the owner had drained the block. What we discovered is water will stand in the bottom of the cast iron housings, below the freeze plugs. When it freezes it actually cracked the cast iron and pushed inside the rotor chamber. That was the end of that motor. So if yours even turns over, its probably ok. By the way, most people dont realize, those freeze plugs in all engines really are not for freeze protection. They're casting hole plugs. With any luck they will push out if it freezes, so we call them freeze plugs
 
Bob Mears
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Echo Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher) <echolakeresort@telus.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:15:13 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Frozen coolant...

 
 Dave
I agree with Bill & Barry, if  that mix & temp is accurate you won't have a loose frost plug. Put a blanket over the cowl & heat up with a propane heater ( be patient, give the engine a chance to get above freezing). Apply pressure to your cooling system, check for external leaks & loosen the oil pan drain plug. If you don't have any sign of coolant at the plug you should be OK.
Georges B. (Canada)
-------Original Message-------
 
From: William
Date: 01/09/06 06:52:55
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Frozen coolant...
 
I would like to support Barry's observation. If you truly had 25/75 mix, and the temp dropped to the 20's, the most the coolant would have likely done is to turn to a slush that doesn't generate the massive forces that ice generates. Checking for the previous leak is certainly a good idea.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 6:00 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Frozen coolant...

Dave,

You might be too pessimistic. Glycol/water in a 25/75 mix is supposed to protect down to 15 degrees, according to tables I looked up. Low 20's shouldn't have been a problem. Even near the transition point, the mix turns slushy before freezing solid.

Nonetheless, you've obviously got a leak somewhere. Just don't assume the worst until you've confirmed it's true. Is your recent leak fix still holding? First place I'd look.

Pressurizing the system is a good idea. Auto parts stores like Autozone will lend you the coolant system pressure tester that fits in standard  radiator cap openings. Pressurize and see where it leaks. You can also dump in a UV dye indicator (I've bought it at NAPA), run the engine briefly and then look for the leak using a black light. I've used both the pressure tester and UV dye.

Sorry about your troubles.

Barry Gardner
Wheaton, IL

David Leonard wrote:
I flew to Mammoth this weekend for some snow boarding.  Has a great time, and was 210 kts GS on the way up.
 
Parked the plane for two nights and came back out this afternoon for the flight home.  But there was a small puddle of coolant under the engine... and it was still dripping. 
 
Then I remembered.  I recently sprung a leak in a cooling line - while away from home.  After fixing the leak I used tap water to refill what coolant had been lost - about a gallon.  I had forgotten all about that on this latest trip... to the mountains.  I figure the antifreeze level was now down to about 25/75 and the overnight temps in the low 20's did the job.
 
I had to concentrate on getting back home for work tomorrow so I couldn't do much.  I couldn't even take off the lower cowl.
 
I suspect the radiator is cracked somewhere.  Anyone have any experience with this sort of thing?  Can this do damage to the engine block?  The radiator is custom and will not be cheap to replace, and it will take a while, and the plane is an 8 hour drive away...  :-(

--
Dave Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html 
--

Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/

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