X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [65.54.250.83] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.5) with ESMTP id 908325 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 01 Jan 2006 22:34:01 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.250.83; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 1 Jan 2006 19:33:16 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 4.174.7.185 by BAY115-DAV11.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 03:33:16 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.174.7.185] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Single rotor running- Tracy questions Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 22:33:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006C_01C60F23.591D4400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0011.1703 Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 22:33:12 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jan 2006 03:33:16.0499 (UTC) FILETIME=[44A1CA30:01C60F4D] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01C60F23.591D4400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageHi Rusty,=20 Glad to hear the initial run problems did not turn out to be systemic.=20 The only thing that comes to mind that can completely disable the A = controller is if the +5 line to the air temp sensor gets shorted to = ground (this has happened to one builder). B is not affected because it = does not use the air temp sensor and its +5 supply is independent. The = latest version of the EC2 does not send +5 to the sensor so this failure = mode was eliminated. I don't know which version you have. If the = instructions show +5 on pin 11 going to air temp sensor it is earlier = model, if it shows pin 1 (ground) instead, it is the later version.=20 Always possible that there is a hardware problem with A, but not = likely. The alternate map table load (with cold start on) is still active. = Don't know why it is not in the instructions unless I deleted it after = the latest updates to the algorithms which made that pre-load option = mostly un-necessary (how's that for an ambiguous answer?) What = injectors are you running? Tracy (mounting coils on 20B) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Russell Duffy=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 6:45 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Single rotor running- Tracy questions Greetings, Below are two days of log entries. The first will be a repeat, if the = message I sent to the list 24 hours ago every decides to show up. = Hopefully this message won't also go into the void that intermittently = appears to exist between Bellsouth, and Lancaironline. Tracy, on my older versions of the EC-2, there were two default = settings. One was setting everything to zero, and the other was setting = it to what you have on the RV-4. I looked through the new manual at the = hanger yesterday, and again today, but just couldn't find the procedure = to set the EC-2 to your settings. There was only the mention of setting = to the zero defaults. =20 Now it's possible that I missed it, but I did find my old cheat sheet = for the procedure, which was basically the same, except turning the cold = start switch on when doing the reset. In retrospect, I did this on mode = one of the the A controller just before noticing that the A controller = seemed dead. Is this procedure for setting the defaults to your values = no longer valid, and did that cause the A controller to wig out for a = while (mentioned in the log)? =20 Also, I think I've mentioned this before, but I'd REALLY prefer to = have the manual for the EC-2, and EM-2 in electronic format. I could = search for this default setting question, rather than having to read = through the whole manual (quickly, and probably missing what I'm looking = for). I could also easily print a copy for the hanger, and home, rather = than having to shuffle a bunch of paper through the copier. I would = venture to guess that almost everyone on this list would feel the same = way. Is there any possibility of posting these manuals on the web page? = You could change the revision number when new features are added, and = put the date they were added. That would let people figure out=20 I'm hitting send now. Let's see if it shows up. Cheers, Rusty (1-1-06 5:45 pm) 12-31-05=20 =20 Made the first attempt to crank the engine today. This turned out to = be a good news/ bad news event. The good news is that it fired up = instantly, and everything seems to work. The bad news is that it's = rough as a cob :-0=20 =20 It would appear that my worst fears about the torque reversals with = the RD-1C drive have come true. I didn't notice the rpm, but the engine = barely made it over the speed the starter turns it. In fact, the = starter stayed engaged a couple times, because the engine didn't = accelerate enough to push the gear back. Did I mention that's it's = rough :-) It just shook the living crap out of the plane, but the = engine mounts work well. The main gear of the plane was actually jumping = slightly off the ground. Good thing I was sitting in the plane, or it = really might have been interesting. =20 =20 While the engine was running, no amount of throttle changes anything. = It's simply impossible for the engine to accelerate out of this mode. = BTW, this is EXACTLY how the 912S used to behave on this plane. If you = didn't crank the engine with enough throttle opening, it would get stuck = in the gearbox shaking mode, and the best thing you could do was shut it = down, and try again. Rotax came out with a "slipper clutch" to = eliminate the problem on the 912S. =20 =20 Next step will be to remove the prop, and try it that way. = Eliminating the rotational mass of the prop should make it better, if = not eliminate the problem altogether. If that works OK, then I may = have to try a different hardness of rubber dampeners on the redrive = thrust plate. If it doesn't work, then I'll likely pull the drive = itself off, and try it that way. =20 =20 1-1-05 =20 Much better today. It appears that some dumbass marked my pulley = wrong :-) Tracy says to put a new mark on the pulley that's 35 degrees = BTDC, and set the static timing to that. The RB pulley has 4 equally = spaced marks on it- 10 ATDC, TDC, 10 BTDC, and 20 BTDC. Realizing that = these are 10 degrees apart, I measured the distance, and then figured = out what one and a half times that distance would be. This new distance = would be 15 degrees, and if I put it beyond the 20 BTDC, I'd be at 35 = BTDC. Unfortunately, when you have the pulley turned around backwards = on the workbench, and put the new mark on the OTHER side of the existing = marks, it becomes 25 ATDC. When I set the static timing, I set it to my = new mark, which I "knew" was right, so the timing was retarded by 60 = degrees. Amazing it ran at all. =20 =20 The good news is that it runs much better now, even with the prop = (didn't try without it). There is still going to be a resonance issue = with the redrive I believe, as there are a couple RPM's that go into the = same rattle mode that I used to get around 1100 RPM on the 13B. The = worst was around 2400 RPM, and it also seemed rough around 3000, but not = as much rattling. I didn't run over about 4000 rpm, or more than a few = minutes, since I suspected I still had a bit of an oil leak, and didn't = want to make too much of a mess. =20 =20 There was oil leaking at the fitting on top of the front housing, = which I use to feed the redrive. This is really a metric fitting, but = 1/8 NPT seems to fit well. I ended up removing the fitting, and = installing a new one, with some miracle gray RTV for good measure. = Unfortunately, it leaked plenty during my few minutes of running. I had = the plane tied to the wheel of the company van, and it is completely = covered in oil. I do mean the whole van, not just the wheel :-) I bet = it's really only a half pint or so, but it sure got spread around by the = prop. =20 =20 I also had an odd case where the A controller seemed dead. The = injectors wouldn't click when I pushed the set button, and the engine = wouldn't fire. The B controller worked normally, but switching to A = while running killed the engine dead. After I turned everything off, = checked for leaks and such, then turned it all back on again, the A = controller seemed to be working fine. It's now as if there's no problem = at all. There's a long time before I could ever consider flying the = plane, so I'll just watch to see if this returns. =20 I need to finish eliminating the leaks, then run it enough to purge = any air from the cooling system, and verify that all is well as far as = cooling goes. At that point, I can give auto tune a try, and then see = if I can make some sense out of the torque reversal induced vibrations. = ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01C60F23.591D4400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Hi Rusty,
Glad to hear the initial run problems did not turn out to be=20 systemic. 
 
 The only thing that comes to mind that can completely disable = the A=20 controller is if the +5 line to the air temp sensor gets shorted to = ground (this=20 has happened to one builder).  B is not affected because it does = not use=20 the air temp sensor and its +5 supply is independent.  The = latest=20 version of the EC2 does not send +5 to the sensor so this failure mode = was=20 eliminated.  I don't know which version you have.  If the = instructions=20 show +5 on pin 11 going to air temp sensor it is earlier model, if = it shows=20 pin 1 (ground) instead, it is the later version.
 
 Always possible that there is a hardware problem with A, = but not=20 likely.
 
The alternate map table load (with cold start on) is still = active. =20 Don't know why it is not in the instructions unless I deleted it after = the=20 latest updates to the algorithms which made that pre-load option mostly=20 un-necessary (how's that for an ambiguous answer?)  What injectors = are you=20 running?
 
Tracy (mounting coils on 20B)
----- Original Message -----
From: Russell=20 Duffy
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 = 6:45=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Single = rotor=20 running- Tracy questions

Greetings,
 
Below are two = days of log=20 entries.  The first will be a repeat, if the message I sent to = the list=20 24 hours ago every decides to show up.  Hopefully this message = won't also=20 go into the void that intermittently appears to exist between = Bellsouth, and=20 Lancaironline.
 
Tracy,  on my=20 older versions of the EC-2, there were two default settings.  One = was=20 setting everything to zero, and the other was setting it to what you = have on=20 the RV-4.  I looked through the new manual at the hanger = yesterday, and=20 again today, but just couldn't find the procedure to set the EC-2 to = your=20 settings.  There was only the mention of setting to the zero=20 defaults. 
 
Now it's = possible=20 that I missed it, but I did find my old cheat sheet for the procedure, = which=20 was basically the same, except turning the cold start switch on when = doing the=20 reset.  In retrospect, I did this on mode one of the the A = controller=20 just before noticing that the A controller seemed dead.  Is this=20 procedure for setting the defaults to your values no longer valid, and = did=20 that cause the A controller to wig out for a while (mentioned in the=20 log)? 
 
Also, I = think I've=20 mentioned this before, but I'd REALLY prefer to have the manual for = the EC-2,=20 and EM-2 in electronic format.  I could search for this default = setting=20 question, rather than having to read through the whole manual = (quickly, and=20 probably missing what I'm looking for).  I could also easily = print a copy=20 for the hanger, and home, rather than having to shuffle a bunch of = paper=20 through the copier.  I would venture to guess that almost = everyone on=20 this list would feel the same way.  Is there any possibility of = posting=20 these manuals on the web page?  You could change the revision = number when=20 new features are added, and put the date they were added. That would = let=20 people figure out
 
I'm = hitting send=20 now.  Let's see if it shows up.
 
Cheers,
Rusty  (1-1-06=20 5:45 pm)
 
 
 
12-31-05 
 
Made the=20 first attempt to crank the engine today. =20 This turned out to be a good news/ bad news event.  The good news is that it = fired up=20 instantly, and everything seems to work. =20 The bad news is that it=92s rough as a cob :-0
 
It would=20 appear that my worst fears about the torque reversals with the RD-1C = drive=20 have come true.  I = didn=92t notice=20 the rpm, but the engine barely made it over the speed the starter = turns=20 it.  In fact, the = starter stayed=20 engaged a couple times, because the engine didn=92t accelerate enough = to push=20 the gear back.  Did I = mention=20 that=92s it=92s rough :-)  = It just=20 shook the living crap out of the plane, but the engine mounts work = well. The=20 main gear of the plane was actually jumping slightly off the = ground.  Good thing I was sitting in = the plane,=20 or it really might have been interesting.  
 
While the=20 engine was running, no amount of throttle changes anything.  It=92s simply impossible for = the engine=20 to accelerate out of this mode.  =20 BTW, this is EXACTLY how the 912S used to behave on this = plane.  If you didn=92t crank the = engine with=20 enough throttle opening, it would get stuck in the gearbox shaking = mode, and=20 the best thing you could do was shut it down, and try again.  Rotax came out with a  =93slipper clutch=94 to = eliminate the=20 problem on the 912S.  =   
 
Next step=20 will be to remove the prop, and try it that way.  Eliminating the rotational = mass of the=20 prop should make it better, if not eliminate the problem = altogether.   If that works OK, then I may = have to=20 try a different hardness of rubber dampeners on the redrive thrust = plate.  If it doesn=92t work, then = I=92ll likely=20 pull the drive itself off, and try it that way.   
 
1-1-05
 
Much better=20 today.  It appears that = some=20 dumbass marked my pulley wrong :-)  =20 Tracy says to put a new = mark on=20 the pulley that's 35 degrees BTDC, and set the static timing to=20 that.  The RB pulley has 4 equally spaced marks on it- = 10 ATDC,=20 TDC, 10 BTDC, and 20 BTDC.   Realizing that these are 10 = degrees=20 apart, I measured the distance, and then figured out what one and a = half times=20 that distance would be.  This new distance would be 15 degrees, = and if I=20 put it beyond the 20 BTDC, I'd be at 35 BTDC.  Unfortunately, = when you=20 have the pulley turned around backwards on the workbench, and put the = new mark=20 on the OTHER side of the existing marks, it becomes 25=20 ATDC.  When I set the static timing, I set it to my new = mark, which=20 I "knew" was right, so the timing was retarded by 60 = degrees. =20 Amazing it ran at=20 all.     
 
The good=20 news is that it runs much better now, even with the prop (didn't try = without=20 it).  There is still going to be a resonance issue with the = redrive I=20 believe, as there are a couple RPM's that go into the same rattle mode = that I=20 used to get around 1100 RPM on the 13B.  The worst was around = 2400 RPM,=20 and it also seemed rough around 3000, but not as much rattling.  = I didn't=20 run over about 4000 rpm, or more than a few minutes,  since I suspected=20 I still had a bit of an oil leak, and didn't want to make = too much=20 of a mess. 
 
There was=20 oil leaking at the fitting on top of the front housing, which I use to = feed=20 the redrive.  This is = really a=20 metric fitting, but 1/8 NPT seems to fit well.  I ended up removing the = fitting, and=20 installing a new one, with some miracle gray RTV for good = measure.  Unfortunately, it leaked = plenty during=20 my few minutes of running.  I had the plane tied to the wheel of = the=20 company van, and it is completely covered in oil.  I do mean the whole van, not = just the=20 wheel :-)   I bet it's really only a half = pint or=20 so, but it sure got spread around by the prop. 
 
I also had=20 an odd case where the A controller seemed dead.  The injectors wouldn=92t = click when I=20 pushed the set button, and the engine wouldn=92t fire.  The B controller worked = normally, but=20 switching to A while running killed the engine dead.  After I turned everything = off,  checked for leaks and such, = then=20 turned it all back on again, the A controller seemed to be working = fine.  It=92s now as if there=92s = no problem at=20 all.  There's a long time before I could ever = consider=20 flying the plane, so I'll just watch to see if this=20 returns.
 
I need to=20 finish eliminating the leaks, then run it enough to purge any air from = the=20 cooling system, and verify that all is well as far as cooling = goes.  At that point, I can give = auto tune a=20 try, and then see if I can make some sense out of the torque reversal = induced=20 vibrations.  =
 
 
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