X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.101] (HELO ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.3) with ESMTP id 860843 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 15:32:02 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.101; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-025-165.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.25.165]) by ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id jB2KVE4p004666 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 15:31:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000701c5f77f$344b3b20$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Ed's High Energy Brakes Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 15:30:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C5F755.4AEB42A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C5F755.4AEB42A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageTodd, As best I know, Van supplies the same rotor/wheel/brake kit = on all his models and have since .. well, back before my kit purchase in = 1992. This is an independent upgrade offered as a kit by Cleveland = brakes and sold by (at least) Aircraft Spruce for around $300 USD. = Since the rotor can be had for around $150, I couldn't see paying the = $300 but then I found out the 1/8" shim cost $84.00 each which could have = made the spruce kit look like a deal. But for $168 USD I figured I = could take 30 minutes or so to make two of them {:>). When I had the older tires (forget the brand but they were provided with = the kit), I could not lock them up although I did leave 300 ft of rubber = from an aborted take off. I now have the Michelins and had not been = able to leave rubber from hard braking (don't know what that says but = that was before the new rotor) Now, I have not tried to leave rubber = with the new rotor, but they do appear to maintain steady braking action = even when heated - the old ones would fade at that point. I suspect = that if you have a tail dragger, it might be best to stay with Van's = stock - as you don't want to end up on your nose. But, with a training = wheel up front, you can reallllllyyyyy get on the binders hard without = worry. The new high energy brakes get their 40% greater stopping power = apparently from the thicker rotor dissipating the heat from the pads = better and less warping and wobbling of the rotor plate under pressure. ED ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bartrim, Todd=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:15 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Ed's High Energy Brakes Hi Ed; I'm curious about your brake upgrade. Is this an upgrade over = Van's currently supplied brake kits, or is it an upgrade from an older = supplied kit to the newer kits? Reason I ask is that with my previous = brake/tire combination, I always had enough brake power to lock up the = tires on pavement, so this was the limiting factor in stopping distance. = But with the new Condor tires I don't seem to be able to brake hard = enough to lock them up and stopping distance seems slightly improved (no = actual measurements were taken). So I'm wondering if I could benefit = from a brake upgrade. I also wonder if the Condors are just gripping better because the = surface is new or if it had anything to do with the temps. While it was = -15C, the runway was reported to be 80% bare & dry, so surface friction = wasn't a problem. Last spring when I was at the Murphy Aircraft factory, I spied in = their machine shop a stack of brake parts. I asked about them and it = turns out that they make all their own based on the Cleveland brake = design, improved in several ways. They were machined aluminium callipers = rather than cast steel, so really looked good. They claimed that they = would directly replace the Cleveland brakes that Van's sells. I'd like to improve on my stopping distance, to get it down to a = couple hundred feet, however I think that it likely won't matter because = the only way I can is on pavement where I always have plenty of space, = but on short rough strips (like where I could build one at home) I think = surface friction will be the limiting factor. Still curious though. Todd (trying to stop on a dime) I now have my two new high energy brake rotors, new pads, new brake = lines and the new fluid (also two new wheel pants {:>)). I really like = the feel and holding action of the new brake set up - it does seem to = make it stop a bit quicker (same size brake pads) and there is no fade = (like I would sometimes have at the end of a hard stop) even after = repeated high speed stops. Also the brakes just feel much firmer and I = like the results. I get no creep at WOT run up like could happen = before. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C5F755.4AEB42A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Todd, As best I know, Van supplies the same=20 rotor/wheel/brake kit on all his models and have since .. well, back = before my=20 kit purchase in 1992.  This is an independent upgrade offered = as a kit=20 by Cleveland brakes and sold by (at least) Aircraft Spruce for around = $300=20 USD.  Since the rotor can be had for around $150, I couldn't see = paying the=20 $300
but then I found out the 1/8" shim cost $84.00 = each which=20 could have made the spruce kit look like a deal.  But for $168 USD = I=20 figured I could take 30 minutes or so to make two of them = {:>).
 
 
When I had the older tires (forget the brand but = they were=20 provided with the kit), I could not lock them up although I did leave = 300 ft of=20 rubber from an aborted take off.  I now have the Michelins and had = not been=20 able to leave rubber from hard braking (don't know what that says but = that was=20 before the new rotor)  Now, I have not tried to leave rubber with = the new=20 rotor, but they do appear to maintain steady braking action = even when=20 heated - the old ones would fade at that point.    I = suspect that=20 if you have a tail dragger, it might be best to stay with Van's stock - = as you=20 don't want to end up on your nose.  But, with a training wheel up = front,=20 you can reallllllyyyyy get on the binders hard without = worry.
 
The new high energy brakes get their 40% greater = stopping=20 power apparently from the thicker rotor dissipating the heat from the = pads=20 better and less warping and wobbling of the rotor plate under=20 pressure.
 
ED
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bartrim, Todd
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 = 3:15=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Ed's High = Energy=20 Brakes

Hi Ed;
   =20 I'm curious about your = brake upgrade. Is=20 this an upgrade over Van's currently supplied brake kits, or is it an = upgrade=20 from an older supplied kit to the newer kits? Reason I ask is that = with my=20 previous brake/tire combination, I always had enough brake power to = lock up=20 the tires on pavement, so this was the limiting factor in stopping = distance.=20 But with the new Condor tires I don't seem to be able to brake hard = enough to=20 lock them up and stopping distance seems slightly improved (no = actual=20 measurements were taken). So I'm wondering if I could benefit from a = brake=20 upgrade.
   =20 I also wonder if the = Condors are just=20 gripping better because the surface is new or if it had anything to do = with=20 the temps. While it was -15C, the runway was reported to be 80% bare = &=20 dry, so surface friction wasn't a problem.
   =20 Last spring when I was at = the Murphy=20 Aircraft factory, I spied in their machine shop a stack of brake = parts. I=20 asked about them and it turns out that they make all their own based = on the=20 Cleveland brake design, improved in several ways. They were machined = aluminium=20 callipers rather than cast steel, so really looked good. They claimed = that=20 they would directly replace the Cleveland brakes that Van's=20 sells.
   =20 I'd like to improve on my = stopping=20 distance, to get it down to a couple hundred feet, however I think = that it=20 likely won't matter because the only way I can is on pavement where I = always=20 have plenty of space, but on short rough strips (like where I could = build one=20 at home) I think surface friction will be the limiting factor. Still = curious=20 though.
 
Todd     (trying to stop = on a=20 dime)

I now have my two new high energy brake = rotors, new=20 pads, new brake lines and the new fluid (also two new wheel pants=20 {:>)).  I really like the feel and holding action of the new = brake=20 set up - it does seem to make it stop a bit quicker (same size brake = pads)=20 and there is no fade (like I would sometimes have at the end of a = hard stop)=20 even after repeated high speed stops.  Also the brakes just = feel much=20 firmer and I like the results.  I get no creep at WOT run up = like could=20 happen before.
 
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