X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.102] (HELO ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0) with ESMTP id 810841 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:22:35 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-025-165.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.25.165]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id jA1JLkfU000623 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:21:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000901c5df19$862befd0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: High Energy Brake Up grade Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:21:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5DEEF.9D216A50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5DEEF.9D216A50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome, David, Yes, I've seen the "Thud" landing when at Korat Thailand - a lot of fast = moving aircraft to get stopped. Its a real helpless feeling to be = moving and not being able to get stopped as you see an obstacle ahead of = you rapidly approaching {:>). =20 I think I made an error on the hole size you need to drill. I think it = is 1/4" rather than 3/16" - whatever dia is required for the An-4 size = bolt. All bolts down in workshop so don't have one handy to measure. Any further questions, let me know. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Carter=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 2:09 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: High Energy Brake Up grade Outstanding post, Ed. Thanks for the complete part number and source = info - can tell you are an EXPERIENCED "lister" - and man with a good = heart. In 1964 I had to land an F-105D with top and bottom speed brake = "petals" stuck full out - top petal blocked drag chute; and had to land = 15 or 20 knots faster than normal 160 K touchdown to keep from dinging = the bottom petal - and had a tail wind, to boot, 'cause Luke didn't = want to change traffic direction on the students returning from the = gunnery range. Had 120 knots IAS at the 1000 feet remaining marker = (rule of thumb for an F-100 was you needed 100 kias or less at 1m' or = take the barrier). . . . The big "hi energy brakes" on the -105 did the job. Made the = turn off at the end (yeah, the brakes were hot so they put the fans on = and tires never blew). I like big brakes. Thanks for showing us the way on the RVs. David ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 6:49 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] High Energy Brake Up grade Hi David, I started out with the standard Van's 500 wheels and brakes as = provided in the kit for the RV-6A. After my brake failure incident, I = did some research about an upgrade kit I heard about on the RV list. The = Cleveland folks indicate the upgrade increases the stopping power = (energy dissipation by 30-40%). I found out that Aircraft Spruce = offers a upgrade kit for Approx $300. =20 The standard brake system is undoubtedly OK when the aircraft = weights in at/under Van's recommendation - but when the aircraft is = heavier and lands a bit faster, I feel the standard brakes leave very = little reserve. A couple of hard stops and you will find the brakes = beginning to slip. In any case, I wanted a bit of a reserve in stopping = power. Well, I did further research and found that the upgrade consisted = of: 1. Thicker rotors (twice as thick as the one that comes with the = kit) - this is the key component as it absorbs and dissipates the heat = better. 2. A 1/8" thick spacer/shim for the calipers 3. Two longer bolts to accommodate the additional thickness of the = spacer. 4. The standard brake pads continue to be used. As an aside, I found that the standard brake fluid has a flash point = of only 240F, so I went to a 450F flash point brake fluid - compatible = with the old fluid and seals.=20 I also replace the kit brake lines with -3 (1/8") brakelines with = ss braid and Teflon lining inside, they give a much firmer feel to the = brakes. Again, this is not necessary - just my personal preference. I found FAA approved rotors for approx $75.00 each for a total of = $150, so I decided to save $150 over the cost of the Kit from Spruce and = ordered them. When I got the rotors, I realized I needed the spacer/shim for the = caliper to accommodate the thicker rotor. So I figured how much can a = 1/8" thick piece of aluminum with two bolt holes in it cost? Well, they = cost $84.00 each!!!!!. So, I made my own out of a 1/8" thick piece of = 6061T6 aluminum plate saving $160. I could not believe this shim cost = more than the rotors but they did. I anodized the plate for corrosion = protection. You can make your own with a drill press, a hacksaw and a = file. A bandsaw makes it a piece of cake. If you retrofit you will find that the thicker rotor will more than = likely require you to space the wheel pant bracket out further with = longer tube spacers on the bolts holding the bracket - else the rotor = will rub against the bracket. While I was at it, I remade the wheel = pant brackets out of 0.05 SS. Here are the part numbers of interest. If you want to buy Aircraft Spruce's Complete upgrade kit, their = part number is #199-93 UPGRADE KIT - For #199-102 standard wheels and brakes. = Upgrades current 40-78B/ 30-9 to new 40-230/30-181 specs. Consists of = #66-106 linings, discs, shims, bolts, rivets and nameplates for two = wheels and brakes. $295.65. This kit has everything you need. This kit is for the type wheels brakes on the RV series there are = two other kits for Long EZ and Cozy but they are much more expensive as = they include the wheels as well. Now if you want to roll your own upgrade here are the part numbers = you will need. 2 - Brake Rotors (RAPCO) from Chief Aircraft Part number RA = 164-09900 $79.95 Each = http://www.chiefaircraft.com/cgi-bin/air/hazel.cgi?action=3Dserve&item=3D= /Aircraft/Brakes/BrakeDiscs.html 4 - Longer bolts (2 for each wheel) to accommodate shim thickness = Part Number AN4H-16A (This has the bolt head drilled for safety = wire) 2 - 1/8" thick 6061T6 plate. approx 3"x1" (I used a brake pad to = give me the curve needed to match the edge of the rotor) in which you = will need to drill two 3/16" holes to capture the two AN4H-16A bolts. =20 As I mentioned you will probably need to use longer spacers for = the wheel pant brackets, I think I went from 1/2" to 3/4" but you will = need to do it so there is approx 1/8" Min between the rotor and wheel = pant bracket when installed. You can find the rotors at other sources, but Chief had the best = price and I had deal with them before. Here are a few links to websites with discussion on the higher = energy brake system Good write up on the higher flash point brake fluid = http://www.fly-web.org/EAA-Chapter493/news/sep04new.pdf Cleveland brakes - the 199-93 upgrade kit description starts on = page 9 - top of page http://www.parker.com/ag/wbd/Cleveland/pdf/wb02b.pdf Here is the best write up on the upgrade even though its in context = of the FALCO aircraft http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/LandingGear/Notes/Notes.html Any question, just shoot me a line. Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Carter=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 10:04 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Brake size (was Re: Shady Bend Report Ed, I've missed what kind of "brake upgrade" you did. If the = original Van's/Cleveland? brakes didn't have enough energy absorption = "power", what did you replace them with? Are you still using the stock = Van's size wheels and tires or something bigger in dia to allow for = bigger brake disc and pads? What kind of options do we have for "size" of brakes? David ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 9:26 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Shady Bend Report Hope to see you there next year, Mark. =20 Sounds like you are making good progress (when visitors = are not present I was wondering about your brake size, I am real happy = with my brake up-grade, just feels like I have more authority over where = the aircraft goes. I calculated the ft-lbs of energy required to stop = my RV-6A from 60 MPH and decided that the old brakes were marginal - = especially with my somewhat heavier aircraft. =20 . Ed A ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5DEEF.9D216A50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Welcome, David,
 
Yes, I've seen the "Thud" landing when at Korat = Thailand -=20 a lot of fast moving aircraft to get stopped.  Its a real helpless = feeling=20 to be moving and not being able to get stopped as you see an obstacle = ahead of=20 you rapidly approaching {:>). 
 
I think I made an error on the hole size = you need to=20 drill.  I think it is 1/4" rather than 3/16" - whatever dia =  is=20 required for the An-4 size bolt. All bolts down in workshop so don't = have one=20 handy to measure.
 
Any further questions, let me know.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David=20 Carter
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, = 2005 2:09=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: High = Energy=20 Brake Up grade

Outstanding post, Ed.  Thanks = for the=20 complete part number and source info - can tell you are an EXPERIENCED = "lister" - and man with a good heart.
 
In 1964 I had to land an F-105D with = top and=20 bottom speed brake "petals" stuck full out - top petal blocked drag = chute;=20 and had to land 15 or 20 knots faster than normal 160 K touchdown = to keep=20 from dinging the bottom petal - and had a tail wind, to boot,=20  'cause Luke didn't want to change traffic direction on the = students=20 returning from the gunnery range.  Had 120 knots IAS at the 1000 = feet=20 remaining marker (rule of thumb for an F-100 was you needed 100 kias = or less=20 at 1m' or take the barrier).
 . . .  The big "hi energy = brakes" on=20 the -105 did the job.  Made the turn off at the end (yeah, the = brakes=20 were hot so they put the fans on and tires never blew).
 
I like big brakes.  Thanks for = showing us=20 the way on the RVs.
 
David
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, = 2005 6:49=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] High = Energy Brake=20 Up grade

Hi David,
 
I started out with the standard Van's 500 = wheels and=20 brakes as provided in the kit for the RV-6A.  After my brake = failure=20 incident, I did some research about an upgrade kit I heard about on = the RV=20 list. The Cleveland folks indicate the upgrade increases=20 the stopping power (energy dissipation by 30-40%).  =  I found=20 out that Aircraft Spruce offers a upgrade kit for Approx $300.  =
 
The standard brake system is undoubtedly OK = when the=20 aircraft weights in at/under Van's recommendation - but when the = aircraft is=20 heavier and lands a bit faster, I feel the standard brakes leave = very little=20 reserve.  A couple of hard stops and you will find the brakes = beginning=20 to slip.  In any case, I wanted a bit of a reserve in stopping=20 power.
 
 
Well, I did further research and found that = the=20 upgrade consisted of:
1.  Thicker rotors (twice as thick as = the one=20 that comes with the kit) - this is the key component as it absorbs = and=20 dissipates the heat better.
2.  A 1/8" thick spacer/shim for the=20 calipers
3. Two longer bolts to accommodate the = additional=20 thickness of the spacer.
4.  The standard brake pads continue to = be=20 used.
 
As an aside, I found that the standard brake = fluid has=20 a flash point of only 240F, so I went to a 450F flash point brake = fluid -=20 compatible with the old fluid and seals.
 
I also replace the kit  brake lines = with -3=20 (1/8") brakelines with ss braid and Teflon lining inside, they give = a much=20 firmer feel to the brakes.  Again, this is not necessary - just = my=20 personal preference.
 
I found FAA approved rotors for approx = $75.00 each for=20 a total of $150, so I decided to save $150 over the cost of the Kit = from=20 Spruce and ordered them.
 
When I got the rotors,  I realized = I needed=20 the spacer/shim for the caliper to accommodate the thicker=20 rotor.  So I  figured how much can a 1/8" thick piece = of=20 aluminum with two bolt holes in it cost?  Well, they cost = $84.00=20 each!!!!!.   So, I made my own out of a 1/8" thick piece = of =20 6061T6 aluminum plate saving $160.  I could not believe this = shim cost=20 more than the rotors but they did.  I anodized the plate for = corrosion=20 protection.  You can make your own with a drill press, a = hacksaw and a=20 file.  A bandsaw makes it a piece of cake.
 
If you retrofit you will find that the = thicker rotor=20 will more than likely require you to space the wheel pant bracket = out=20 further with longer tube spacers on the bolts holding the bracket - = else the=20 rotor will rub against the bracket.  While I was at it, I = remade the=20 wheel pant brackets out of 0.05 SS.
 
Here are the part numbers of = interest.
 
If you want to buy Aircraft Spruce's = Complete upgrade=20 kit, their part number is
 
#199-93 UPGRADE KIT = - For=20 #199-102 standard wheels and brakes. Upgrades current 40-78B/ 30-9 = to new=20 40-230/30-181 specs. Consists of #66-106 linings, discs, shims, = bolts,=20 rivets and nameplates for two wheels and brakes.   = $295.65. =20 This kit has everything you need.
 
This kit is for the type wheels brakes on = the RV=20 series there are two other kits for Long EZ and Cozy but they are = much more=20 expensive as they include the wheels as well.
 
Now if you want to roll your own upgrade = here are the=20 part numbers you will need.
 
2 - Brake Rotors  (RAPCO) from Chief = Aircraft=20 Part number RA = 164-09900=20 $79.95 Each
 
http://www.chiefaircraft.co= m/cgi-bin/air/hazel.cgi?action=3Dserve&item=3D/Aircraft/Brakes/BrakeD= iscs.html
 
 
4 - Longer bolts (2 for each wheel) to = accommodate=20 = shim  thickness        =  =20 Part Number AN4H-16A (This has the bolt head = drilled for=20 safety wire)
 
2 - 1/8" thick 6061T6 plate.  approx = 3"x1" (I=20 used a brake pad to give me the curve needed to match the edge of = the rotor)=20 in which you will need to drill two 3/16" holes to = capture the two=20 AN4H-16A bolts. 
 
As I mentioned   you will probably = need to=20 use longer spacers for the wheel pant brackets, I think I went from = 1/2" to=20 3/4" but you will need to do it so there is approx 1/8" Min between = the=20 rotor and wheel pant bracket when installed.
 
You can find the rotors at other sources, = but Chief=20 had the best price and I had deal with them before.
 
Here are a few links to websites with = discussion on=20 the higher energy brake system
 
Good write up on the higher flash point = brake fluid http://w= ww.fly-web.org/EAA-Chapter493/news/sep04new.pdf
 
Cleveland brakes  - the 199-93 upgrade = kit=20 description starts on page 9 - top of page
 
http://www.= parker.com/ag/wbd/Cleveland/pdf/wb02b.pdf
 
 
Here is the best write up on the upgrade = even though=20 its in context of the FALCO aircraft
 
ht= tp://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/LandingGear/Notes/Notes.html
 
Any question, just shoot me a = line.
 
Ed A
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David Carter
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, October 31, = 2005 10:04=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Brake = size (was=20 Re: Shady Bend Report

Ed, I've missed what kind of = "brake upgrade"=20 you did.  If the original Van's/Cleveland? brakes didn't have = enough=20 energy absorption "power", what did you replace them with?  = Are you=20 still using the stock Van's size wheels and tires or something = bigger in=20 dia to allow for bigger brake disc and pads?
 
What kind of options do we have = for "size" of=20 brakes?
 
David
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, October 31, = 2005 9:26=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Shady Bend=20 Report

Hope to see you there next year, = Mark. =20
 
<snip> Sounds like you are making = good=20 progress (when visitors are not present I was=20 wondering about your brake size, I am real happy with my brake = up-grade,=20 just feels like I have more authority over where the aircraft=20 goes.  I calculated the ft-lbs of energy required to stop = my RV-6A=20 from 60 MPH and decided that the old brakes were marginal - = especially=20 with my somewhat heavier aircraft. 
<snip>.
 
Ed A
 
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