X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.101] (HELO ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0c2) with ESMTP id 713961 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:21:34 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.101; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-065-188-083-049.carolina.res.rr.com [65.188.83.49]) by ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j87DKkl9020332 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:20:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001801c5b3ae$f6b537c0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Alternative fuel Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:20:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C5B38D.6F3608E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C5B38D.6F3608E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your hypothesis about the Saab power reduction while running on Gasoline = sound right on the mark to me, Bill. There is no question that you can = produce power with Alcohol - it does appear to have some nice fuel = characteristics - disregarding its toxic by products and corrosion. = But, the bottom line is you need considerably higher quantity of alcohol = to produce the same amount of power you can on gasoline. This might not = be a big consideration for a short drag racer run or even with a = ground/water based vehicle - but it is certainly a determent to aircraft = performance . Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WRJJRS@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 12:49 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Alternative fuel OK guys,=20 So you will understand I have built alcohol engines for 1/4 migets, = Turbo drag bilkes, and cars. Typically you will up the compression to = around 14:1 as just a start. For a piston engine that means a different = piston and usually rod to handle it. Cams need to be optimised for = alcohol, and often you will do a different valve seat. (thinner dur to = cooling effect of alcohol) Then comes the induction system, even with = injection systems I changed every o-ring to one KNOWN compatible with = alcohol. If you ar running a carburator you need brass (not plastic) = floats and need to be sure every seal starting with the float needle is = compatible. If you are not running a stainless steel exhaust system and = muffler you better get one. One of the combustion byproducts of alcohol = is formaldhyde, I'm not sure if this is what attacks the exhaust system = or just the water generated does it but the oxidation is aggressive. = Usually we would remove the plugs after the race and squirt top cylinder = lube like Marvel Mystery Oil in the cylinder and turn the engine a few = times to prevent rust prior to the next time we started the engine. = Other than that I hardly ever touched anything except the jetting. :-) By the way Ed I can guess how the specs on the Saab happen. If setup = for alcohol it runs fine, (on alcohol), when running gas it tries to = detonate but the knock sensors kick back the timing and run the system = open loop rich to keep the temp down. There would be the reason for = poorer power and mileage. Bill Jepson ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C5B38D.6F3608E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Your hypothesis about the Saab power reduction while = running=20 on Gasoline sound right on the mark to me, Bill.  There is no = question that=20 you can produce power with Alcohol - it does appear to have some nice = fuel=20 characteristics - disregarding its toxic by products and = corrosion.  But,=20 the bottom line is you need considerably higher quantity of alcohol to = produce=20 the same amount of power you can on gasoline.  This might not be a = big=20 consideration for a short drag racer run or even with a ground/water = based=20 vehicle - but it is certainly a determent to aircraft performance = .
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 WRJJRS@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, = 2005 12:49=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Alternative=20 fuel

OK guys,
 So you will understand I have built alcohol engines for 1/4 = migets,=20 Turbo drag bilkes, and cars. Typically you will up the compression to = around=20 14:1 as just a start. For a piston engine that means a different = piston and=20 usually rod to handle it. Cams need to be optimised for alcohol, and = often you=20 will do a different valve seat. (thinner dur to cooling effect of = alcohol)=20 Then comes the induction system, even with injection systems I changed = every=20 o-ring to one KNOWN compatible with alcohol. If you ar running a = carburator=20 you need brass (not plastic) floats and need to be sure every seal = starting=20 with the float needle is compatible. If you are not running a = stainless steel=20 exhaust system and muffler you better get one. One of the combustion=20 byproducts of alcohol is formaldhyde, I'm not sure if this is what = attacks the=20 exhaust system or just the water generated does it but the oxidation = is=20 aggressive. Usually we would remove the plugs after the race and = squirt top=20 cylinder lube like Marvel Mystery Oil in the cylinder and turn the = engine a=20 few times to prevent rust prior to the next time we started the = engine. Other=20 than that I hardly ever touched anything except the jetting. :-)
By the way Ed I can guess how the specs on the Saab happen. If = setup for=20 alcohol it runs fine, (on alcohol), when running gas it tries to = detonate but=20 the knock sensors kick back the timing and run the system open loop = rich to=20 keep the temp down. There would be the reason for poorer power and=20 mileage.
Bill Jepson
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