X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [201.225.225.167] (HELO cwpanama.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.6) with ESMTP id 626466 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:30:50 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=201.225.225.167; envelope-from=rijakits@cwpanama.net Received: from [201.224.93.110] (HELO usuarioq3efog0) by frontend1.cwpanama.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with SMTP id 47112452 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 22:30:28 -0500 Message-ID: <012d01c59a37$21ab9960$6e5de0c9@usuarioq3efog0> From: "rijakits" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Back from Osh/ Dave & Buly repair notes Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 22:30:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0129_01C59A0D.38598390" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0129_01C59A0D.38598390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George, I will try to dig it up. I think it would be worth to follow up onthis, as for the long distance travellers it might not always be possible to refill. There is also some info somewhere on a newsletter about refilling with welders ox, as nowadays it seems to be the same quality as aero-ox or med-ox. Thomas J. ----- Original Message ----- From: George Lendich To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 6:26 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back from Osh/ Dave & Buly repair notes Tom, I was thinking 'Oxygen concentrators as well, but remember them as being quite large and bulky and running on mains power. Things may have changed (as they do) and there may be some portable types available now. Although it saves refilling bottles, there are regular services needed to maintain the units ability to function correctly. Dave Leonard may know of the current industry development in this area. George ( down under) On some past newsletter available on the BD-4 site, http://bd-4.org/index.php , "Literature - Newsletters - Roger Mellema's newsletters" was a discussion on "on-board oxygene producers". They even tried one against bottled ox and found no difference in saturation. It was mentioned that the Harrier jump-jet uses that system (and most likely every other fighter flying today....) The unit tested was for home health-care for people who have to get ox all the time or part time. The unit was rather bulky and heavy, but IIRC most of the bulk/weight was casing, so the idea was to trim things down and change the needed powersupply to on-board electrics. The system works with 2 ceramic membrane-filters that would bind the nitrogene in the air and leave just ox and inert gases. After a certain time the filter would be purged and the 2nd filter would provide the ox supply. The home unit seemed to supply enough for at least 2 adults. Depending on the time required to go from a FL to 14500 ft, you might even get away without a back-up or a very small one. Thomas Jakits ----- Original Message ----- From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 11:35 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back from Osh/ Dave & Buly repair notes On 8/5/05, Ernest Christley wrote: John Slade wrote: > I will want one suitable for two users. My back seater won't go over > 10,500 without it. > > Tracy. > Glad you survived that one. We'd miss you for all sorts of reasons :) > Take a look at http://www.aeromedix.com > I got their 2 place system for around $400 complete with a full 640 ox > bottle. It's gone up a bit since. Haven't had a chance to use it yet, > but the quality and service seem good. > Regards, > John > I've bookmarked this page. Very interesting stuff. I'm basically healthy, and don't plan on much FL flying. But I think one of their miniature, $289 systems would be useful for the type of situation Tracy found himself in. If I had that and the Nonin Flightstat, it would minimize the weight I carry around but still maximize safety. $600 for a complete oxygen system isn't all that bad. David, this is probably a good question for you. Would it be necessary to carry one of the oxygen monitors all the time, or would it be enough for someone to wear one for a few flights to characterize how their body reacts and then just use oxygen in those conditions? In other words, can a person expect to react the same everytime, or is it unpredictable? Difficult question. In general over the short term you will react pretty much the same as long as nothing else changes. Also, it is not so much your O2 saturation that matters as your ability to tolerate lower saturations. For example, some mountain climbers can function in strenuous environments with SpO2 in the low 30's!!! Others will begin to notice significant effects in the low 90's. Some people live in the low 80's at sea level. With age, in general, tolerance declines while the amount your saturation drops increases. Many things affect your tolerance such as smoking or other carbon monoxide exposure, lung disease, dehydration, anemia, cerebral vascular disease, heart disease, change in activity level or even a hang over. So really, the SpO2 monitor tells you very little. It will drop more or less predictably with altitude, but there is no way to say what number is a safe decline. As expected, the FAA regulations are set for a reasonable lowest common denominator. That means that a few people will experience significant effects even while following the letter of the law, while most can tolerate significantly higher altitudes. A few years ago I spent about 10 min at 27,000' in an altitude chamber. I was somewhat dizzy, but could communicate and do math. My O2 sat was in the low 70's and dropping. Longer exposure might change things somewhat. Probably couldn't do that now. I notice very little effects at 23k (in a chamber) except for loss of color vision and slight uncoordination - I certainly would have the where-with-all to fly en-route stuff for short periods. What is hard for me to remember is that I am getting older, as I am in denial. Either way, the important thing is to be able to recognize the subtle effects and say "that's enough," above 14.5k or not. If you get the opportunity, a chamber ride is an excellent experience. A few people, even those young and in great shape, do react very strangely - and it can vary day to day. Also, having O2 readily available even if not continuously used would be an excellent and cost effective safety measure for those fly at altitudes where there is the possibility of an issue. -- Dave Leonard Navy Flight Surgeon Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html http://members.aol.com/vp4skydoc/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0129_01C59A0D.38598390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
George,
I will try to dig it up. I think it would be = worth to=20 follow up onthis, as for the long distance travellers it might not = always be=20 possible to refill.
There is also some info somewhere on a = newsletter about=20 refilling with welders ox, as nowadays it seems to be the same quality = as=20 aero-ox or med-ox.
 
Thomas J.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 George=20 Lendich
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 = 6:26=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back = from Osh/=20 Dave & Buly repair notes

Tom,
I was thinking 'Oxygen concentrators = as well, but=20 remember them as being quite large and bulky and running on mains=20 power.
Things may have changed (as they do) = and there=20 may be some portable types available now.
 
Although it saves refilling bottles, = there are=20 regular services needed to maintain the units ability to function=20 correctly.
 
Dave Leonard may know of the current=20 industry development in this area.
George ( down under)
On some past newsletter available on = the BD-4=20 site, http://bd-4.org/index.php ,=20 "Literature - Newsletters - Roger Mellema's newsletters" was a = discussion on=20 "on-board oxygene producers". They even tried one against bottled ox = and=20 found no difference in saturation.
It was mentioned that the Harrier jump-jet = uses that=20 system (and most likely every other fighter flying = today....)
The unit tested was for home health-care for = people=20 who have to get ox all the time or part time.
The unit was rather bulky and heavy, but = IIRC most of=20 the bulk/weight was casing, so the idea was to trim things down and = change=20 the needed powersupply to on-board electrics. The system works with = 2=20 ceramic membrane-filters that would bind the nitrogene in the air = and leave=20 just ox and inert gases. After a certain time the filter would be = purged and=20 the 2nd filter would provide the ox supply.
The home unit seemed to supply enough for at = least 2=20 adults.
Depending on the time required to go from a = FL to=20 14500 ft, you might even get away without a back-up or a very small=20 one.
 
Thomas Jakits
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 David=20 Leonard
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, August 05, = 2005 11:35=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Back from=20 Osh/ Dave & Buly repair notes



On 8/5/05, Ernest=20 Christley <echristley@nc.rr.com>=20 wrote:=20
John=20 Slade wrote:

> I will want one suitable for two=20 users.   My back seater won't go over
> 10,500 = without=20 it.
>
> Tracy.
> Glad you survived that one. = We'd=20 miss you for all sorts of reasons :)
> Take a look at http://www.aeromedix.com
> I = got their 2 place system for around $400 complete with a full = 640 ox=20
> bottle. It's gone up a bit since. Haven't had a chance = to use=20 it yet,
> but the quality and service seem good.
>=20 Regards,
> John
>

I've bookmarked this=20 page.  Very interesting stuff.  I'm = basically=20
healthy, and don't plan on much FL flying.  But I = think=20 one of their
miniature, $289 systems would be useful for the = type of=20 situation Tracy
found himself in.  If I had that = and the=20 Nonin Flightstat, it would
minimize the weight I carry around = but=20 still maximize safety.  $600 for
a complete oxygen = system=20 isn't all that bad.

David, this is probably a good = question for=20 you.  Would it be necessary
to carry one of the = oxygen=20 monitors all the time, or would it be enough
for someone to = wear one=20 for a few flights to characterize how their body
reacts and = then just=20 use oxygen in those conditions?  In other = words,
can a=20 person expect to react the same everytime, or is it = unpredictable?=20

Difficult question.  In general over the short term you = will=20 react pretty much the same as long as nothing else changes.  = Also, it=20 is not so much your O2 saturation that matters as your ability to = tolerate=20 lower saturations.  For example, some mountain climbers = can=20 function in strenuous environments with SpO2 in the low = 30's!!! =20 Others will begin to notice significant effects in the low = 90's. =20 Some people live in the low 80's at sea level. 
 
With age, in general, tolerance declines while the = amount your=20 saturation drops increases.  Many things affect your = tolerance such=20 as smoking or other carbon monoxide exposure, lung disease, = dehydration,=20 anemia, cerebral vascular disease, heart disease, change in = activity=20 level or even a hang over.
 
So really, the SpO2 monitor tells you very little.  It = will drop=20 more or less predictably with altitude, but there is no way = to say=20 what number is a safe decline.
 
As expected, the FAA regulations are set for a reasonable = lowest=20 common denominator.  That means that a few people will=20 experience significant effects even while following the letter of = the law,=20 while most can tolerate significantly higher altitudes.
 
A few years ago I spent about 10 min at 27,000' in an = altitude=20 chamber.  I was somewhat dizzy, but could communicate and do=20 math.  My O2 sat was in the low 70's and dropping.  = Longer=20 exposure might change things somewhat.  Probably couldn't do = that=20 now.  I notice very little effects at 23k (in a chamber) = except for=20 loss of color vision and slight uncoordination - I certainly would = have=20 the where-with-all to fly en-route stuff for short periods.  =
 
What is hard for me to remember is that I am getting older, = as I am=20 in denial.   Either way, the important thing is to be = able to=20 recognize the subtle effects and say "that's = enough,"  above=20 14.5k or not.
 
If you get the opportunity, a chamber ride is an excellent=20 experience.  A few people, even those young and in great = shape, do=20 react very strangely - and it can vary day to day.
 
Also, having O2 readily available even if not continuously = used would=20 be an excellent and cost effective safety measure for = those fly at=20 altitudes where there is the possibility of an issue.

--
Dave Leonard
Navy Flight Surgeon
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://memb= ers.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html
http://members.aol.c= om/vp4skydoc/index.html=20
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