X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.100] (HELO ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.6) with ESMTP id 626452 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 22:17:51 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.100; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-065-188-083-049.carolina.res.rr.com [65.188.83.49]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j762H4CB013457 for ; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 22:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003f01c59a2c$f8f93f90$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Back from Osh/ Blood ox saturation Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 22:17:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01C59A0B.71B56C00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C59A0B.71B56C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Having experienced hypoxia in a controlled environment with others in an = altitude chamber (as well as by myself at t 16,000), I can say that some = people have indicators of the onset of hypoxia that they can recognize = and some people do not. Some people observe the color of the skin under = their fingernails, some folks apparently get a tingly feeling, myself, I = get the drops - I can not hold onto a pen or pencil and will repeatedly = drop them and that is my clue to do what the falling pen's and pencils = are doing - down! Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 1:53 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back from Osh/ Blood ox saturation Dave is certainly the expert here on this so I will add my comments = only as anecdotal data that (as Dave pointed out) does not necessarily = apply to the next person. =20 I do carry a little gadget that measures blood ox saturation and use = it whenever flying above 10,000 ft. Over the course of many flights I = established my own limits ( 62 - 70% ) and learned a few breathing = techniques to increase the saturation level a little when needed. I = think it was Bernie who tipped me off on them. Most basic is exhaling = under pressure. Also as Dave said, tolerance varies on different days. Some = authorities say you cannot recognize the onset of hypoxia symptoms but = that is not true in all cases. =20 Haven't had an occasion to spout my two favorite rules in awhile but = it seems appropriate now. 1. Rules are for those who are not able to make up their own. (from = a good friend and mentor) 2. A man's got to know his own limitations. (Dirty Harry) Tracy On 8/5/05, Ernest Christley wrote:=20 John Slade wrote: > I will want one suitable for two users. My back seater won't = go over > 10,500 without it.=20 > > Tracy. > Glad you survived that one. We'd miss you for all sorts of = reasons :) > Take a look at http://www.aeromedix.com > I got their 2 place system for around $400 complete with a full = 640 ox=20 > bottle. It's gone up a bit since. Haven't had a chance to use it = yet, > but the quality and service seem good. > Regards, > John > I've bookmarked this page. Very interesting stuff. I'm basically = healthy, and don't plan on much FL flying. But I think one of = their miniature, $289 systems would be useful for the type of situation = Tracy found himself in. If I had that and the Nonin Flightstat, it = would minimize the weight I carry around but still maximize safety. = $600 for a complete oxygen system isn't all that bad. David, this is probably a good question for you. Would it be = necessary to carry one of the oxygen monitors all the time, or would it be = enough=20 for someone to wear one for a few flights to characterize how = their body reacts and then just use oxygen in those conditions? In other = words, can a person expect to react the same everytime, or is it = unpredictable?=20 Difficult question. In general over the short term you will react = pretty much the same as long as nothing else changes. Also, it is not = so much your O2 saturation that matters as your ability to tolerate = lower saturations. For example, some mountain climbers can function in = strenuous environments with SpO2 in the low 30's!!! Others will begin = to notice significant effects in the low 90's. Some people live in the = low 80's at sea level. =20 With age, in general, tolerance declines while the amount your = saturation drops increases. Many things affect your tolerance such as = smoking or other carbon monoxide exposure, lung disease, dehydration, = anemia, cerebral vascular disease, heart disease, change in activity = level or even a hang over.=20 So really, the SpO2 monitor tells you very little. It will drop = more or less predictably with altitude, but there is no way to say what = number is a safe decline. As expected, the FAA regulations are set for a reasonable lowest = common denominator. That means that a few people will experience = significant effects even while following the letter of the law, while = most can tolerate significantly higher altitudes.=20 A few years ago I spent about 10 min at 27,000' in an altitude = chamber. I was somewhat dizzy, but could communicate and do math. My = O2 sat was in the low 70's and dropping. Longer exposure might change = things somewhat. Probably couldn't do that now. I notice very little = effects at 23k (in a chamber) except for loss of color vision and slight = uncoordination - I certainly would have the where-with-all to fly = en-route stuff for short periods. =20 What is hard for me to remember is that I am getting older, as I am = in denial. Either way, the important thing is to be able to recognize = the subtle effects and say "that's enough," above 14.5k or not. If you get the opportunity, a chamber ride is an excellent = experience. A few people, even those young and in great shape, do react = very strangely - and it can vary day to day. Also, having O2 readily available even if not continuously used = would be an excellent and cost effective safety measure for those fly at = altitudes where there is the possibility of an issue. --=20 Dave Leonard Navy Flight Surgeon Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html http://members.aol.com/vp4skydoc/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C59A0B.71B56C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Having experienced hypoxia in a = controlled=20 environment with others in an altitude chamber (as well as by myself at = t=20 16,000), I can say that some people have indicators of the onset of = hypoxia that=20 they can recognize and some people do not.  Some people observe the = color=20 of the skin under their fingernails, some folks apparently get a tingly = feeling,=20 myself, I get the drops - I can not hold onto a pen or pencil and will=20 repeatedly drop them and that is my clue to do what the falling = pen's and=20 pencils are doing - down!
 
Ed A
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy = Crook
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 = 1:53=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back = from Osh/=20 Blood ox saturation

Dave is certainly the expert here on this so I will add my = comments=20 only as anecdotal data that (as Dave pointed out) does not necessarily = apply=20 to the next person. 
 
I do carry a little gadget that measures blood ox saturation and = use it=20 whenever flying above 10,000 ft.  Over the course of many flights = I=20 established my own limits ( 62 - 70% ) and learned a few breathing = techniques=20 to increase the saturation level a little when needed.  I think = it was=20 Bernie who tipped me off on them.  Most basic is = exhaling under=20 pressure.
 
Also as Dave said, tolerance varies on different = days.   Some=20 authorities say you cannot recognize the onset of hypoxia symptoms but = that is=20 not true in all cases.  
 
Haven't had an occasion to spout my two favorite rules in = awhile but=20 it seems appropriate now.
 
1.  Rules are for those who are not able to make up = their=20 own.  (from a good friend and mentor)
2.  A man's got to know his own=20 = limitations.          (= Dirty=20 Harry)
Tracy


On 8/5/05, Ernest=20 Christley <echristley@nc.rr.com>=20 wrote:=20
John=20 Slade wrote:

> I will want one suitable for two=20 users.   My back seater won't go over
> 10,500 = without it.=20
>
> Tracy.
> Glad you survived that one. We'd = miss you=20 for all sorts of reasons :)
> Take a look at http://www.aeromedix.com
> I = got=20 their 2 place system for around $400 complete with a full 640 ox =
>=20 bottle. It's gone up a bit since. Haven't had a chance to use it=20 yet,
> but the quality and service seem good.
>=20 Regards,
> John
>

I've bookmarked this=20 page.  Very interesting stuff.  I'm basically=20
healthy, and don't plan on much FL flying.  But I = think one=20 of their
miniature, $289 systems would be useful for the type = of=20 situation Tracy
found himself in.  If I had that and = the=20 Nonin Flightstat, it would
minimize the weight I carry around = but still=20 maximize safety.  $600 for
a complete oxygen system = isn't all=20 that bad.

David, this is probably a good question for=20 you.  Would it be necessary
to carry one of the = oxygen=20 monitors all the time, or would it be enough
for someone to = wear one=20 for a few flights to characterize how their body
reacts and = then just=20 use oxygen in those conditions?  In other words,
can = a person=20 expect to react the same everytime, or is it unpredictable?=20

Difficult question.  In general over the short term you = will react=20 pretty much the same as long as nothing else changes.  Also, it = is not=20 so much your O2 saturation that matters as your ability to tolerate = lower=20 saturations.  For example, some mountain climbers can = function in=20 strenuous environments with SpO2 in the low 30's!!!  Others = will begin=20 to notice significant effects in the low 90's.  Some people = live in the=20 low 80's at sea level. 
 
With age, in general, tolerance declines while the amount = your=20 saturation drops increases.  Many things affect your tolerance = such as=20 smoking or other carbon monoxide exposure, lung disease, = dehydration,=20 anemia, cerebral vascular disease, heart disease, change in = activity=20 level or even a hang over.
 
So really, the SpO2 monitor tells you very little.  It = will drop=20 more or less predictably with altitude, but there is no way to = say what=20 number is a safe decline.
 
As expected, the FAA regulations are set for a reasonable = lowest common=20 denominator.  That means that a few people will experience = significant effects even while following the letter of the law, = while most=20 can tolerate significantly higher altitudes.
 
A few years ago I spent about 10 min at 27,000' in an altitude=20 chamber.  I was somewhat dizzy, but could communicate and do=20 math.  My O2 sat was in the low 70's and dropping.  = Longer=20 exposure might change things somewhat.  Probably couldn't do = that=20 now.  I notice very little effects at 23k (in a chamber) except = for=20 loss of color vision and slight uncoordination - I certainly would = have the=20 where-with-all to fly en-route stuff for short periods. 
 
What is hard for me to remember is that I am getting older, as = I am in=20 denial.   Either way, the important thing is to be able to = recognize the subtle effects and say "that's = enough,"  above 14.5k=20 or not.
 
If you get the opportunity, a chamber ride is an excellent=20 experience.  A few people, even those young and in great shape, = do=20 react very strangely - and it can vary day to day.
 
Also, having O2 readily available even if not continuously used = would=20 be an excellent and cost effective safety measure for those fly = at=20 altitudes where there is the possibility of an issue.

--
Dave Leonard
Navy Flight Surgeon
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://memb= ers.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html
http://members.aol.c= om/vp4skydoc/index.html=20
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