X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail05.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.186] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.6) with ESMTPS id 626344 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:26:22 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.186; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d211-31-65-67.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.31.65.67]) by mail05.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j75NPUq3012276 for ; Sat, 6 Aug 2005 09:25:33 +1000 Message-ID: <007401c59a15$20ee5c50$43411fd3@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Back from Osh/ Dave & Buly repair notes Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 09:26:36 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0071_01C59A68.F18BE280" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C59A68.F18BE280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom, I was thinking 'Oxygen concentrators as well, but remember them as being = quite large and bulky and running on mains power. Things may have changed (as they do) and there may be some portable = types available now.=20 Although it saves refilling bottles, there are regular services needed = to maintain the units ability to function correctly. Dave Leonard may know of the current industry development in this area. George ( down under) On some past newsletter available on the BD-4 site, = http://bd-4.org/index.php , "Literature - Newsletters - Roger Mellema's = newsletters" was a discussion on "on-board oxygene producers". They even = tried one against bottled ox and found no difference in saturation. It was mentioned that the Harrier jump-jet uses that system (and most = likely every other fighter flying today....) The unit tested was for home health-care for people who have to get ox = all the time or part time. The unit was rather bulky and heavy, but IIRC most of the bulk/weight = was casing, so the idea was to trim things down and change the needed = powersupply to on-board electrics. The system works with 2 ceramic = membrane-filters that would bind the nitrogene in the air and leave just = ox and inert gases. After a certain time the filter would be purged and = the 2nd filter would provide the ox supply. The home unit seemed to supply enough for at least 2 adults. Depending on the time required to go from a FL to 14500 ft, you might = even get away without a back-up or a very small one. Thomas Jakits ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Leonard=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 11:35 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back from Osh/ Dave & Buly repair notes On 8/5/05, Ernest Christley wrote:=20 John Slade wrote: > I will want one suitable for two users. My back seater won't = go over > 10,500 without it.=20 > > Tracy. > Glad you survived that one. We'd miss you for all sorts of = reasons :) > Take a look at http://www.aeromedix.com > I got their 2 place system for around $400 complete with a full = 640 ox=20 > bottle. It's gone up a bit since. Haven't had a chance to use it = yet, > but the quality and service seem good. > Regards, > John > I've bookmarked this page. Very interesting stuff. I'm basically = healthy, and don't plan on much FL flying. But I think one of = their miniature, $289 systems would be useful for the type of situation = Tracy found himself in. If I had that and the Nonin Flightstat, it = would minimize the weight I carry around but still maximize safety. = $600 for a complete oxygen system isn't all that bad. David, this is probably a good question for you. Would it be = necessary to carry one of the oxygen monitors all the time, or would it be = enough=20 for someone to wear one for a few flights to characterize how = their body reacts and then just use oxygen in those conditions? In other = words, can a person expect to react the same everytime, or is it = unpredictable?=20 Difficult question. In general over the short term you will react = pretty much the same as long as nothing else changes. Also, it is not = so much your O2 saturation that matters as your ability to tolerate = lower saturations. For example, some mountain climbers can function in = strenuous environments with SpO2 in the low 30's!!! Others will begin = to notice significant effects in the low 90's. Some people live in the = low 80's at sea level. =20 With age, in general, tolerance declines while the amount your = saturation drops increases. Many things affect your tolerance such as = smoking or other carbon monoxide exposure, lung disease, dehydration, = anemia, cerebral vascular disease, heart disease, change in activity = level or even a hang over.=20 So really, the SpO2 monitor tells you very little. It will drop = more or less predictably with altitude, but there is no way to say what = number is a safe decline. As expected, the FAA regulations are set for a reasonable lowest = common denominator. That means that a few people will experience = significant effects even while following the letter of the law, while = most can tolerate significantly higher altitudes.=20 A few years ago I spent about 10 min at 27,000' in an altitude = chamber. I was somewhat dizzy, but could communicate and do math. My = O2 sat was in the low 70's and dropping. Longer exposure might change = things somewhat. Probably couldn't do that now. I notice very little = effects at 23k (in a chamber) except for loss of color vision and slight = uncoordination - I certainly would have the where-with-all to fly = en-route stuff for short periods. =20 What is hard for me to remember is that I am getting older, as I am = in denial. Either way, the important thing is to be able to recognize = the subtle effects and say "that's enough," above 14.5k or not. If you get the opportunity, a chamber ride is an excellent = experience. A few people, even those young and in great shape, do react = very strangely - and it can vary day to day. Also, having O2 readily available even if not continuously used = would be an excellent and cost effective safety measure for those fly at = altitudes where there is the possibility of an issue. --=20 Dave Leonard Navy Flight Surgeon Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html http://members.aol.com/vp4skydoc/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C59A68.F18BE280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom,
I was thinking 'Oxygen concentrators as = well, but=20 remember them as being quite large and bulky and running on mains=20 power.
Things may have changed (as they do) = and there may=20 be some portable types available now.
 
Although it saves refilling bottles, = there are=20 regular services needed to maintain the units ability to function=20 correctly.
 
Dave Leonard may know of the current=20 industry development in this area.
George ( down under)
On some past newsletter available on the = BD-4 site,=20 http://bd-4.org/index.php ,=20 "Literature - Newsletters - Roger Mellema's newsletters" was a = discussion on=20 "on-board oxygene producers". They even tried one against bottled ox = and found=20 no difference in saturation.
It was mentioned that the Harrier jump-jet = uses that=20 system (and most likely every other fighter flying = today....)
The unit tested was for home health-care for = people who=20 have to get ox all the time or part time.
The unit was rather bulky and heavy, but IIRC = most of=20 the bulk/weight was casing, so the idea was to trim things down and = change the=20 needed powersupply to on-board electrics. The system works with 2 = ceramic=20 membrane-filters that would bind the nitrogene in the air and leave = just ox=20 and inert gases. After a certain time the filter would be purged and = the 2nd=20 filter would provide the ox supply.
The home unit seemed to supply enough for at = least 2=20 adults.
Depending on the time required to go from a FL = to 14500=20 ft, you might even get away without a back-up or a very small=20 one.
 
Thomas Jakits
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David=20 Leonard
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 = 11:35=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Back = from Osh/=20 Dave & Buly repair notes



On 8/5/05, Ernest=20 Christley <echristley@nc.rr.com>=20 wrote:=20
John=20 Slade wrote:

> I will want one suitable for two=20 users.   My back seater won't go over
> 10,500 = without it.=20
>
> Tracy.
> Glad you survived that one. We'd = miss you=20 for all sorts of reasons :)
> Take a look at http://www.aeromedix.com
> I = got=20 their 2 place system for around $400 complete with a full 640 ox =
>=20 bottle. It's gone up a bit since. Haven't had a chance to use it=20 yet,
> but the quality and service seem good.
>=20 Regards,
> John
>

I've bookmarked this=20 page.  Very interesting stuff.  I'm basically=20
healthy, and don't plan on much FL flying.  But I = think one=20 of their
miniature, $289 systems would be useful for the type = of=20 situation Tracy
found himself in.  If I had that and = the=20 Nonin Flightstat, it would
minimize the weight I carry around = but still=20 maximize safety.  $600 for
a complete oxygen system = isn't all=20 that bad.

David, this is probably a good question for=20 you.  Would it be necessary
to carry one of the = oxygen=20 monitors all the time, or would it be enough
for someone to = wear one=20 for a few flights to characterize how their body
reacts and = then just=20 use oxygen in those conditions?  In other words,
can = a person=20 expect to react the same everytime, or is it unpredictable?=20

Difficult question.  In general over the short term you = will react=20 pretty much the same as long as nothing else changes.  Also, it = is not=20 so much your O2 saturation that matters as your ability to tolerate = lower=20 saturations.  For example, some mountain climbers can = function in=20 strenuous environments with SpO2 in the low 30's!!!  Others = will begin=20 to notice significant effects in the low 90's.  Some people = live in the=20 low 80's at sea level. 
 
With age, in general, tolerance declines while the amount = your=20 saturation drops increases.  Many things affect your tolerance = such as=20 smoking or other carbon monoxide exposure, lung disease, = dehydration,=20 anemia, cerebral vascular disease, heart disease, change in = activity=20 level or even a hang over.
 
So really, the SpO2 monitor tells you very little.  It = will drop=20 more or less predictably with altitude, but there is no way to = say what=20 number is a safe decline.
 
As expected, the FAA regulations are set for a reasonable = lowest common=20 denominator.  That means that a few people will experience = significant effects even while following the letter of the law, = while most=20 can tolerate significantly higher altitudes.
 
A few years ago I spent about 10 min at 27,000' in an altitude=20 chamber.  I was somewhat dizzy, but could communicate and do=20 math.  My O2 sat was in the low 70's and dropping.  = Longer=20 exposure might change things somewhat.  Probably couldn't do = that=20 now.  I notice very little effects at 23k (in a chamber) except = for=20 loss of color vision and slight uncoordination - I certainly would = have the=20 where-with-all to fly en-route stuff for short periods. 
 
What is hard for me to remember is that I am getting older, as = I am in=20 denial.   Either way, the important thing is to be able to = recognize the subtle effects and say "that's = enough,"  above 14.5k=20 or not.
 
If you get the opportunity, a chamber ride is an excellent=20 experience.  A few people, even those young and in great shape, = do=20 react very strangely - and it can vary day to day.
 
Also, having O2 readily available even if not continuously used = would=20 be an excellent and cost effective safety measure for those fly = at=20 altitudes where there is the possibility of an issue.

--
Dave Leonard
Navy Flight Surgeon
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://memb= ers.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html
http://members.aol.c= om/vp4skydoc/index.html=20
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