X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.4.51.96] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.6) with ESMTP id 625961 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:54:09 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.4.51.96; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:53:25 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 64.4.51.220 by BAY107-DAV24.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:53:25 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [64.4.51.220] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Back from Osh/ Blood ox saturation Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:53:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0069_01C599C5.0957E750" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0011.1703 Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:53:19 -0400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Aug 2005 17:53:25.0509 (UTC) FILETIME=[94094350:01C599E6] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0069_01C599C5.0957E750 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave is certainly the expert here on this so I will add my comments only = as anecdotal data that (as Dave pointed out) does not necessarily apply = to the next person. =20 I do carry a little gadget that measures blood ox saturation and use it = whenever flying above 10,000 ft. Over the course of many flights I = established my own limits ( 62 - 70% ) and learned a few breathing = techniques to increase the saturation level a little when needed. I = think it was Bernie who tipped me off on them. Most basic is exhaling = under pressure. Also as Dave said, tolerance varies on different days. Some = authorities say you cannot recognize the onset of hypoxia symptoms but = that is not true in all cases. =20 Haven't had an occasion to spout my two favorite rules in awhile but it = seems appropriate now. 1. Rules are for those who are not able to make up their own. (from a = good friend and mentor) 2. A man's got to know his own limitations. (Dirty Harry) Tracy On 8/5/05, Ernest Christley = > wrote:=20 John Slade wrote: > I will want one suitable for two users. My back seater won't go = over > 10,500 without it.=20 > > Tracy. > Glad you survived that one. We'd miss you for all sorts of reasons = :) > Take a look at http://www.aeromedix.com > I got their 2 place system for around $400 complete with a full = 640 ox=20 > bottle. It's gone up a bit since. Haven't had a chance to use it = yet, > but the quality and service seem good. > Regards, > John > I've bookmarked this page. Very interesting stuff. I'm basically=20 healthy, and don't plan on much FL flying. But I think one of their miniature, $289 systems would be useful for the type of situation = Tracy found himself in. If I had that and the Nonin Flightstat, it would minimize the weight I carry around but still maximize safety. $600 = for a complete oxygen system isn't all that bad. David, this is probably a good question for you. Would it be = necessary to carry one of the oxygen monitors all the time, or would it be = enough=20 for someone to wear one for a few flights to characterize how their = body reacts and then just use oxygen in those conditions? In other = words, can a person expect to react the same everytime, or is it = unpredictable?=20 Difficult question. In general over the short term you will react = pretty much the same as long as nothing else changes. Also, it is not = so much your O2 saturation that matters as your ability to tolerate = lower saturations. For example, some mountain climbers can function in = strenuous environments with SpO2 in the low 30's!!! Others will begin = to notice significant effects in the low 90's. Some people live in the = low 80's at sea level. =20 With age, in general, tolerance declines while the amount your = saturation drops increases. Many things affect your tolerance such as = smoking or other carbon monoxide exposure, lung disease, dehydration, = anemia, cerebral vascular disease, heart disease, change in activity = level or even a hang over.=20 So really, the SpO2 monitor tells you very little. It will drop more = or less predictably with altitude, but there is no way to say what = number is a safe decline. As expected, the FAA regulations are set for a reasonable lowest = common denominator. That means that a few people will experience = significant effects even while following the letter of the law, while = most can tolerate significantly higher altitudes.=20 A few years ago I spent about 10 min at 27,000' in an altitude = chamber. I was somewhat dizzy, but could communicate and do math. My = O2 sat was in the low 70's and dropping. Longer exposure might change = things somewhat. Probably couldn't do that now. I notice very little = effects at 23k (in a chamber) except for loss of color vision and slight = uncoordination - I certainly would have the where-with-all to fly = en-route stuff for short periods. =20 What is hard for me to remember is that I am getting older, as I am in = denial. Either way, the important thing is to be able to recognize the = subtle effects and say "that's enough," above 14.5k or not. If you get the opportunity, a chamber ride is an excellent experience. = A few people, even those young and in great shape, do react very = strangely - and it can vary day to day. Also, having O2 readily available even if not continuously used would = be an excellent and cost effective safety measure for those fly at = altitudes where there is the possibility of an issue. --=20 Dave Leonard Navy Flight Surgeon Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY = http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html = http://members.aol.com/vp4skydoc/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0069_01C599C5.0957E750 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dave is certainly the expert here on this so I will add my = comments=20 only as anecdotal data that (as Dave pointed out) does not necessarily = apply to=20 the next person. 
 
I do carry a little gadget that measures blood ox saturation and = use it=20 whenever flying above 10,000 ft.  Over the course of many flights I = established my own limits ( 62 - 70% ) and learned a few breathing = techniques to=20 increase the saturation level a little when needed.  I think it was = Bernie=20 who tipped me off on them.  Most basic is exhaling under=20 pressure.
 
Also as Dave said, tolerance varies on different days.   = Some=20 authorities say you cannot recognize the onset of hypoxia symptoms but = that is=20 not true in all cases.  
 
Haven't had an occasion to spout my two favorite rules in = awhile but=20 it seems appropriate now.
 
1.  Rules are for those who are not able to make up their = own.  (from a good friend and mentor)
2.  A man's got to know his own=20 limitations.          (= Dirty=20 Harry)
Tracy


On 8/5/05, Ernest=20 Christley <echristley@nc.rr.com> = wrote:=20
John=20 Slade wrote:

> I will want one suitable for two = users.  =20 My back seater won't go over
> 10,500 without it. =
>
>=20 Tracy.
> Glad you survived that one. We'd miss you for all = sorts of=20 reasons :)
> Take a look at http://www.aeromedix.com
> I = got=20 their 2 place system for around $400 complete with a full 640 ox =
>=20 bottle. It's gone up a bit since. Haven't had a chance to use it=20 yet,
> but the quality and service seem good.
> = Regards,
>=20 John
>

I've bookmarked this page.  Very = interesting=20 stuff.  I'm basically
healthy, and don't plan on much = FL=20 flying.  But I think one of their
miniature, $289 = systems would=20 be useful for the type of situation Tracy
found himself = in.  If=20 I had that and the Nonin Flightstat, it would
minimize the weight = I carry=20 around but still maximize safety.  $600 for
a complete = oxygen=20 system isn't all that bad.

David, this is probably a good = question=20 for you.  Would it be necessary
to carry one of the = oxygen=20 monitors all the time, or would it be enough
for someone to wear = one for=20 a few flights to characterize how their body
reacts and then just = use=20 oxygen in those conditions?  In other words,
can a = person=20 expect to react the same everytime, or is it unpredictable?=20

Difficult question.  In general over the short term you will = react=20 pretty much the same as long as nothing else changes.  Also, it = is not so=20 much your O2 saturation that matters as your ability to tolerate lower = saturations.  For example, some mountain climbers can = function in=20 strenuous environments with SpO2 in the low 30's!!!  Others will = begin to=20 notice significant effects in the low 90's.  Some people live in = the low=20 80's at sea level. 
 
With age, in general, tolerance declines while the amount = your=20 saturation drops increases.  Many things affect your tolerance = such as=20 smoking or other carbon monoxide exposure, lung disease, dehydration, = anemia,=20 cerebral vascular disease, heart disease, change in activity = level or=20 even a hang over.
 
So really, the SpO2 monitor tells you very little.  It will = drop=20 more or less predictably with altitude, but there is no way to = say what=20 number is a safe decline.
 
As expected, the FAA regulations are set for a reasonable lowest = common=20 denominator.  That means that a few people will experience=20 significant effects even while following the letter of the law, while = most can=20 tolerate significantly higher altitudes.
 
A few years ago I spent about 10 min at 27,000' in an altitude=20 chamber.  I was somewhat dizzy, but could communicate and do = math. =20 My O2 sat was in the low 70's and dropping.  Longer exposure = might=20 change things somewhat.  Probably couldn't do that now.  I = notice=20 very little effects at 23k (in a chamber) except for loss of color = vision and=20 slight uncoordination - I certainly would have the where-with-all to = fly=20 en-route stuff for short periods. 
 
What is hard for me to remember is that I am getting older, as I = am in=20 denial.   Either way, the important thing is to be able to = recognize=20 the subtle effects and say "that's enough,"  above 14.5k or=20 not.
 
If you get the opportunity, a chamber ride is an excellent=20 experience.  A few people, even those young and in great shape, = do react=20 very strangely - and it can vary day to day.
 
Also, having O2 readily available even if not continuously used = would be=20 an excellent and cost effective safety measure for those fly at = altitudes=20 where there is the possibility of an issue.

--
Dave Leonard
Navy Flight Surgeon
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://memb= ers.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html
http://members.aol.c= om/vp4skydoc/index.html=20
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