X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [216.52.245.18] (HELO ispwestemail2.mdeinc.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.6) with ESMTP id 625425 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 22:32:46 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.52.245.18; envelope-from=wschertz@ispwest.com Received: from 7n7z201 (unverified [63.13.186.49]) by ispwestemail2.mdeinc.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.1.361.21) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 4 Aug 2005 19:31:51 -0700 Message-ID: <00d601c59965$d3762890$0400000a@7n7z201> From: "William" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: further testing - -lycoming O-320 Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 21:31:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D3_01C5993B.EA477940" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01C5993B.EA477940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Were any of the hoses replaced? If a new hose with pushon fittings is = made up incorrectly, you can create a small flap of rubber that bends = down into the flow. At low flow, it doesn't bend in, at higher flow it = bends in due to the fuel flow and partially blocks the flow. A local Cub had two or three engine outs on rotation (fortunately a long = runway) before they traced the problem to this. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser # 4045 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: rijakits=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:20 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: further testing - -lycoming O-320 Kevin, I still would bet on fuel delivery. As it sounds it must be in the = carb itself. As Walter Kerr suggested, try another carb. Do you still have the = leaky old one or is that the overhauled? Anyway 2 min sounds like a the float bowl isn't even full when you = start. I had water in the tank once and a 540 Lyc would run at 70% rpm for = nearly 6 min. I thought about fouled spark plugs as it was running rough = like that and wanted to warm up to clear them. But it didn't, so I = decided to take off, fly a turn around the boat ( to REALLY warm up the = engine), land and check mags again ( R-44 on a Tunaboat....). I take her = into a hover at around 6 min running time and right there she quit!! 10 = seconds later I would have been in the drink! Turned out to be about 13 gallons of water in the fuel!! My mechanic = "checked" the fuel okay - my fault, I trusted him..... However the 540 ran around 6 min with the fuel in the line and the = float bowl, until the water hit. WIWTS is 2 min is NO indication that = there is good flow into the bowl. Your description sounds like something plugs up the fuel line to the = bowl or the float/needle is stuck halfway up or some debris in the line = (from where the fuel line connects to the carb to the float-bowl) IF the engine sounds good at 1500 ( no misfires, etc.), ignition = should be fine. Do you have an air filter? Any chance something in the airpath can = flip-flop and partially plug the intake? How long does it take until you can re-start and run it the 2 min at = 2100-rpm? Even if your carb is new, it doesn't mean it is/was clean. In aviation = I learned to take nothing (especially if it is new) for granted. E.g. even with new parts it is sometimes impossible to adjust the gap = for the retarted points in a mag correctly AND time it correctly to the = engine. The manufacturing tolerances are too big, ....sometimes. Check your carb.... Thomas J. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: kevin lane=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 6:15 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] further testing - -lycoming O-320 my engine continues to baffle me and everyone else on the airport. = I would send it to a mechanic, but I've spoken with all of them and they = have no ideas either. it continues to look like fuel starvation, but no = gauges support this theory. it runs at 2150rpm, burning 11.5-12.3 gals = per hr, 3 lbs fuel pressure, for about 2 minutes then stumbles(and will = die unless I reduce the throttle to 1500rpm. )the stumbling occurs = when cht's are hitting 375 - 410. continued running at 1500 allows the = cht's to climb, so I have to shut things down. the same behavior = occurred when I flew the plane the first two times (until I realized I = could duplicate the problem on the ground) I have a new carb(ma4spa) = and 4 rebuilt cyls (on which I am attempting to set the rings, = unfortunately) if I run the engine at less than full rich the engine = won't stumble before temps hit 400+ and I have to pull power. I bypassed my fuel filters with no difference. I installed new = filters that have a core of little brass balls stuck together and = seemingly much better flow than the other filter(no angles either, just = straight flow) I cleaned and backflushed the fuel pickups and vents, ran with the = gas caps off(no diff). my fuel flow is not changing(until it sputters = back to 1500rpm), so my idea that the carb bowl was slowly not being = refilled doesn't show up. the same problem existed before I had the = cyls rebuilt and welded, so I doubt that stuck valves/weak springs are = to blame. also, that would show problems from the start, not a few = minutes later. everyone wants to blame the electronic ig. switching between mag = and elec. during the first minute shows no diff. switching after it = starts to falter shows no diff. pulling back to 1500rpm after falter = shows no diff. I can't believe I have a spark or timing problem because = there are no times when one works and the other doesn't. my slick mag = is brand new also. I haven't tried new plugs yet, the current ones are = new, although I've heard many stories of bad new plugs (hey, what do you = want for $20?) my 1" dia. cheapy van's fuel pressure meter is now showing 3 lbs. I = removed the pressure regulator. in the past it used to show 8lbs = pressure (hence I installed the regulator)and my carb showed signs of = leakage which is one reason I replaced it. I have no idea why it shows = only 3 lbs now. I tried plumbing the carb directly from a gas can. I = forgot to switch the fuel line off and shot fuel clear out on the wing = when the engine started. I would guess that the mech. fuel pump is = working correctly. the facet elec pump will pump about 1 gallon in 2 = minutes when pumping into a gas can thru the mechanical pump. it makes = no diff. if I run the facet or not. I have bypassed the mech. pump and = run just with the facet, no diff., in fact, when I shut off the facet = the engine still runs until the bowl burns down, maybe 30 sec.? it is hard to believe that both the auto plugs and aero plugs are = simultaneously failing due to heat. I could fly the plane at less than = full rich to see how long it would fly I suppose, but that seems = unnecessarily risky. I've had two "lucky" flights so far. I checked for induction leaks(pressurized and soap solution) and = found nothing. I am out of ideas. this problem is just kicking my butt. = hopefully one of you guys will spark an new idea or theory for me. Kevin Lane Portland, OR e-mail-> n3773@comcast.net ------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01C5993B.EA477940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Were any of the hoses replaced? If a = new hose with=20 pushon fittings is made up incorrectly, you can create a small flap of = rubber=20 that bends down into the flow. At low flow, it doesn't bend in, at = higher flow=20 it bends in due to the fuel flow and partially blocks the = flow.
 
A local Cub had two or three engine = outs on=20 rotation (fortunately a long runway) before they traced the problem to=20 this.
 
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 rijakits
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, = 2005 7:20=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = further testing=20 - -lycoming O-320

Kevin,
 
I still would bet on fuel delivery. As it = sounds it must=20 be in the carb itself.
As Walter Kerr suggested, try another carb. Do = you still=20 have the leaky old one or is that the overhauled?
Anyway 2 min sounds like a the float bowl = isn't even=20 full when you start.
I had water in the tank once and a 540 Lyc = would run at=20 70% rpm for nearly 6 min. I thought about fouled spark plugs as it was = running=20 rough like that and wanted to warm up to clear them. But it didn't, so = I=20 decided to take off, fly a turn around the boat ( to REALLY warm up = the=20 engine), land and check mags again ( R-44 on a Tunaboat....). I = take her=20 into a hover at around 6 min running time and right there she quit!! = 10=20 seconds later I would have been in the drink!
Turned out to be about 13 gallons of water in = the fuel!!=20 My mechanic "checked" the fuel okay - my fault, I trusted=20 him.....
 
However the 540 ran around 6 min with the fuel = in the=20 line and the float bowl, until the water hit. WIWTS is 2 min is NO = indication=20 that there is good flow into the bowl.
 
Your description sounds like something plugs = up the fuel=20 line to the bowl or the float/needle is stuck halfway up or some = debris in the=20 line (from where the fuel line connects to the carb to the=20 float-bowl)
IF the engine sounds good at 1500 ( no = misfires, etc.),=20 ignition should be fine.
Do you have an air filter? Any chance = something in the=20 airpath can flip-flop and partially plug the intake?
How long does it take until you can re-start = and run it=20 the 2 min at 2100-rpm?
 
Even if your carb is new, it doesn't mean it = is/was=20 clean. In aviation I learned to take nothing (especially if it is new) = for=20 granted.
E.g. even with new parts it is sometimes = impossible to=20 adjust the gap for the retarted points in a mag correctly AND = time it=20 correctly to the engine.
The manufacturing tolerances are too big,=20 ....sometimes.
 
Check your carb....
 
Thomas J.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 kevin = lane=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, = 2005 6:15=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] further = testing -=20 -lycoming O-320

my engine continues to = baffle me and=20 everyone else on the airport.  I would send it to a mechanic, = but I've=20 spoken with all of them and they have no ideas either.  it = continues to=20 look like fuel starvation, but no gauges support this theory.  = it runs=20 at 2150rpm, burning 11.5-12.3 gals per hr, 3 lbs fuel pressure, for = about 2=20 minutes then stumbles(and will die unless I reduce the throttle to=20 1500rpm.  )the stumbling  occurs when cht's are hitting = 375 -=20 410.  continued running at 1500 allows the cht's to climb, so I = have to=20 shut things down.  the same behavior occurred when I flew the = plane the=20 first two times (until I realized I could duplicate the problem on = the=20 ground)  I have a new carb(ma4spa) and 4 rebuilt cyls (on which = I am=20 attempting to set the rings, unfortunately)  if I run the = engine at=20 less than full rich the engine won't stumble before temps hit 400+ = and I=20 have to pull power.
I bypassed my fuel = filters with no=20 difference.  I installed new filters that have a core of little = brass=20 balls stuck together and seemingly much better flow than the = other=20 filter(no angles either, just straight flow)
I cleaned and backflushed = the fuel=20 pickups and vents, ran with the gas caps off(no diff).  my fuel = flow is=20 not changing(until it sputters back to 1500rpm), so my idea that the = carb=20 bowl was slowly not being refilled doesn't show up.  the same = problem=20 existed before I had the cyls rebuilt and welded, so I doubt that = stuck=20 valves/weak springs are to blame.  also, that would show = problems=20 from the start, not a few minutes later.
everyone wants to blame = the=20 electronic ig.  switching between mag and elec.  during = the first=20 minute shows no diff.  switching after it starts to falter = shows no=20 diff.  pulling back to 1500rpm after falter shows no = diff.  I=20 can't believe I have a spark or timing problem because there are no = times=20 when one works and the other doesn't.  my slick mag is brand = new=20 also.  I haven't tried new plugs yet, the current ones are new, = although I've heard many stories of bad new plugs (hey, what do you = want for=20 $20?)
my 1" dia. cheapy van's = fuel pressure=20 meter is now showing 3 lbs.  I removed the pressure = regulator.  in=20 the past it used to show 8lbs pressure (hence I installed the = regulator)and=20 my carb showed signs of leakage which is one reason I replaced = it.  I=20 have no idea why it shows only 3 lbs now.  I tried plumbing the = carb=20 directly from a gas can.  I forgot to switch the fuel line off = and shot=20 fuel clear out on the wing when the engine started.  I would = guess that=20 the mech. fuel pump is working correctly.  the facet elec pump = will=20 pump about 1 gallon in 2 minutes when pumping into a gas can thru = the=20 mechanical pump.  it makes no diff. if I run the facet or = not.  I=20 have bypassed the mech. pump and run just with the facet, no diff., = in fact,=20 when I shut off the facet the engine still runs until the bowl burns = down,=20 maybe 30 sec.?
it is hard to believe = that both the=20 auto plugs and aero plugs are simultaneously failing due to = heat.  I=20 could fly the plane at less than full rich to see how long it would = fly I=20 suppose, but that seems unnecessarily risky.  I've had two = "lucky"=20 flights so far.
I checked for induction=20 leaks(pressurized and soap solution) and found = nothing.
    I am = out of=20 ideas.  this problem is just kicking my butt.  hopefully = one of=20 you guys will spark an new idea or theory for me.
Kevin Lane  Portland, OR
e-mail-> n3773@comcast.net
 
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