Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #25596
From: kevin lane <n3773@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Float Bowl?? - -lycoming O-320
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 21:01:15 -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Ed - my hangar-mate returns from Oshkosh next week.  I will swap carbs with his and see what happens.  it would be unusual to have the new carb mimic problems that the old one did, however, I'm beyond the simple explanations at this point.
your number estimates are very good.  it is a shame that I can't run very long on the ground before overheating.  I blocked off my inlets and attached a leaf blower to my plenum thinking that it could keep the engine cool enough on the ground.  I guess I proved that cooling takes more than, oh, a 1/10 hp 110V motor puts out, even if that blower can clean the entire hangar in one blast and claims a 220mph wind.  when I shut the engine off I have to be careful, because I can see a degree a second cooling with my "turbo cooling" setup.  at 800rpm my blower can only hold the temp even.  I wish I could run longer on the ground, say at 2000rpm and see what happens, but my cht's get too high(215) before anything happens.(indicating that I am not having valve/push rod/heat problems?) maybe if I used a garden hose to water cool?  :-)
you are right in that it seems that I am supplying enough fuel, both pressure and quantity.  the electric pump alone will pump 25 gal/hr.  I am running 3/8" auto rubber hose right now to keep things easy, so I know I don't have any internal blockages.   I guess I'm going to have to take that new carb apart and check the float level.  it is very simple, using a drill bit as a thickness gauge.  removing the carb is not so much fun.
another idea would be to find a O2 sensor and see if my mixture runs lean as it stumbles.  I don't know if a portable unit is made.  sensors might be nice to have added to the exhaust, although I guess I'd need two since I have dual exhaust.  that would answer leaning questions also.(but, will 1970's technology work on 1930's equipment? :-)
meanwhile I have to go vacation in your state with my wife's family, out on nags head.  I wanted to fly my rv out originally, ha!  this is the first real problem I've had in 8 years.  a learning experience, right?  that's why we claimed we were building these, I seem to remember.
Kevin Lane  Portland, OR
e-mail-> n3773@comcast.net
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 5:57 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Float Bowl?? - -lycoming O-320

Kevin,
 
The fact is  the engine does run at 2150 rpm for about 2 minutes before it stumbles.   If burning say 12 GPH.  Then that is 0.2 gal/minute (12/60).  So you engine apparently burns from 0.2 to 0.4 gallons before it starts to stumble.    It runs at 1500 rpm (you do not give a fuel flow) - so assuming the fuel flow is linear then at 1500 rpm your fuel flow is 1500/2150 *12 = 8.37 GPH, which is sustainable.
 
Now since your fuel system (what ever the problem ) can sustain 1500 rpm or 8.37 GPH (0.139 GPM) that is approx 70% of the fuel flow you need at 2150 rpm.  So lets say your carb's flow bowl volume is 1/2 pint.  That is 0.0625 gallon. 
 
So consider the flow bowl simply a part of your fuel flow.  At 12 GPH (0.2 gpm), the bowl would empty (or get too low to sustain 2150 rpm) in .0625/0.2 = 0.3125 minutes or 18.75 seconds.  So at first glance that would not seem to be the problem.  However - that is provided there were no fuel flowing into the bowl at all.  But of course there is - at least at the rate of 0.139 gph (8.37 GPH).  So the draw down would actually be the difference between the demand (12 gph) and the supply (8.37 gph).  That turns out to be 12-8.37 = 3.36 GPH (or .056 gpm).
 
So taking our 1/2 pint float bowl at 0.0625 gallons and a draw down rate of .056 gpm we have  .0625/.056 = 1.11 minutes in which it would take a full carb fuel bowl to be drawn down to where it could no longer sustain  the 12 gph flow rate.  Now that is not quite your 2 minutes, but getting close to it .  So unless I screwed up the math(or my assumption about your fuel flow at 1500 rpm is off or your float bowl is not 1/2 pint), your symptoms sure look like a fuel flow problem to me. 
 
Based on everthing you checked and found OK, I would start to suspect the carburator myself.  I know nothing about aircraft carburetors, but assume they have a float which regulates how open a valve is that regulates flow into the carburator and therefore can determine the max rate at which the flow bowl will fill. Its possible that the there is something wrong in that area (since your check appears to have eliminated everything else in the fuel system as a possible cause).
 
Also, I would disconnect the fuel feed to the carb stick it into a container and run the pump (electric in this case) for one minute and the measure and calculate the max fuel flow your system gives you.  This won't prove anything is wrong with the carb but will at least show you are getting more than 8.7 gph fuel flow to the carb.  If you are not getting at least 18-20 GPH fuel flow I think you have something  in your system that needs fixing. 
 
About all I can think of.
 
Ed A
 
 ----- Original Message -----
From: kevin lane
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:15 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] further testing - -lycoming O-320

my engine continues to baffle me and everyone else on the airport.  I would send it to a mechanic, but I've spoken with all of them and they have no ideas either.  it continues to look like fuel starvation, but no gauges support this theory.  it runs at 2150rpm, burning 11.5-12.3 gals per hr, 3 lbs fuel pressure, for about 2 minutes then stumbles(and will die unless I reduce the throttle to 1500rpm.  )the stumbling  occurs when cht's are hitting 375 - 410.  continued running at 1500 allows the cht's to climb, so I have to shut things down.  the same behavior occurred when I flew the plane the first two times (until I realized I could duplicate the problem on the ground)  I have a new carb(ma4spa) and 4 rebuilt cyls (on which I am attempting to set the rings, unfortunately)  if I run the engine at less than full rich the engine won't stumble before temps hit 400+ and I have to pull power.
I bypassed my fuel filters with no difference.  I installed new filters that have a core of little brass balls stuck together and seemingly much better flow than the other filter(no angles either, just straight flow)
I cleaned and backflushed the fuel pickups and vents, ran with the gas caps off(no diff).  my fuel flow is not changing(until it sputters back to 1500rpm), so my idea that the carb bowl was slowly not being refilled doesn't show up.  the same problem existed before I had the cyls rebuilt and welded, so I doubt that stuck valves/weak springs are to blame.  also, that would show problems from the start, not a few minutes later.
everyone wants to blame the electronic ig.  switching between mag and elec.  during the first minute shows no diff.  switching after it starts to falter shows no diff.  pulling back to 1500rpm after falter shows no diff.  I can't believe I have a spark or timing problem because there are no times when one works and the other doesn't.  my slick mag is brand new also.  I haven't tried new plugs yet, the current ones are new, although I've heard many stories of bad new plugs (hey, what do you want for $20?)
my 1" dia. cheapy van's fuel pressure meter is now showing 3 lbs.  I removed the pressure regulator.  in the past it used to show 8lbs pressure (hence I installed the regulator)and my carb showed signs of leakage which is one reason I replaced it.  I have no idea why it shows only 3 lbs now.  I tried plumbing the carb directly from a gas can.  I forgot to switch the fuel line off and shot fuel clear out on the wing when the engine started.  I would guess that the mech. fuel pump is working correctly.  the facet elec pump will pump about 1 gallon in 2 minutes when pumping into a gas can thru the mechanical pump.  it makes no diff. if I run the facet or not.  I have bypassed the mech. pump and run just with the facet, no diff., in fact, when I shut off the facet the engine still runs until the bowl burns down, maybe 30 sec.?
it is hard to believe that both the auto plugs and aero plugs are simultaneously failing due to heat.  I could fly the plane at less than full rich to see how long it would fly I suppose, but that seems unnecessarily risky.  I've had two "lucky" flights so far.
I checked for induction leaks(pressurized and soap solution) and found nothing.
    I am out of ideas.  this problem is just kicking my butt.  hopefully one of you guys will spark an new idea or theory for me.
Kevin Lane  Portland, OR
e-mail-> n3773@comcast.net
 
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