X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net ([205.152.59.64] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c5) with ESMTP id 921805 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 01 May 2005 22:44:23 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.152.59.64; envelope-from=sqpilot@bellsouth.net Received: from paul ([209.214.44.180]) by imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.11 201-253-122-130-111-20040605) with SMTP id <20050502024335.IOZW1994.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net@paul> for ; Sun, 1 May 2005 22:43:35 -0400 Message-ID: <003101c54f46$e2dfa5e0$982dd6d1@paul> From: To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: fuel pumps/forced landing Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 13:42:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01C54F1C.D3F5FF40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C54F1C.D3F5FF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageHi, Ed.....Yes, I have two MSD fuel pumps. They are not on the = same circuit, and each one has a 20 amp fuse.(which will very soon be = replaced by a circuit breaker that I can reset from the cockpit). Once = I was downwind, I turned the right pump off. Shortly thereafter, the = engine quit. I tried different throttle settings as it was failing, but = it was too late. Turned on the other pump, but the engine had already = quit. (yes, it happens very fast) I then focused on flying the airplane = and making the runway, and postponing the troubleshooting until I was = safely on the ground. (Later on the ground, found the fuse blown on the = left fuel pump). By turning off the right fuel pump (which was = working), it was unable to continue running with the left pump that had = a blown fuse. Don't know why the fuse was blown yet. I also checked the = gascolator and screen, and found very little sediment. There was, = however a piece of rubber in the bottom of the gascolator that appears = to be the inside of a rubber fuel line, that may have been a product of = installing the reuseable fittings. I understand that sometimes when = inserting these fittings, a "flap" of rubber can obstruct the fuel line. = This is what it appears to be. We ran the pump on the ground, and only = a small amount of fuel came out the main fuel line that I disconnected = from the fuel rail. Upon reassembling the gascolator and turning on the = fuel selector, the gascolator did not fill with fuel. (gravity fed, all = downhill from the fuel tanks). We blew into the hose, and then the = gascolator filled with fuel. Seems there was some type of restriction = somewhere in the line upstream of the gascolator. I need to remove all = fuel lines and inspect for debris. I also had planned on pumping all of = the fuel out of the fuel tanks using the high pressure fuel = pumps....that's when I realized that they only run a few seconds after = turning on the key, then shut off with no engine rpm input. I don't know = if the obstruction caused the fuel pump fuse to blow or not.=20 I now recall reading in the MicroTech manual that the fuel pumps = shut off if it detects no spark from the coils, so that it would not = continue pumping fuel into an engine that has no spark. This is = obviously why the pump only runs for a few seconds when I first turn on = the ignition switch, then quickly stops pumping. We put a voltmeter to = the inline fuse, and found that it had 12.9 volts as soon as the = ignition was turned on, but after a few seconds, the pump stopped and = there was no longer any voltage at the fuse.=20 I'm hoping we can find what caused the slight fuel obstruction in = front of the gascolator....if we can't find the cause, it would be = difficult to regain confidence in the fuel system. Too bad, because the = engine was running strong and smooth, and the temps were great!!! Paul = aka deadstick Conner ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 6:30 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's new rotor housings Paul, Sorry to hear about the fuel pump - Did I ever mention I NEVER use = fuses for flight critical components - always circuit breakers. More = fundamental though is I assumed you were flying with two fuel EFI pumps. = I have two and both are on for take off and landing, strongly recommend = two EFI flue pumps! Strongly recommend don't fly with just one = operational pump! OR are you telling us that you have two pumps, but = both pumps were on the same circuit?? But, enough, great to hear you are becoming an accomplished glider = pilot - keep doing that and you are going to catch up with someof the = rest of us - which you probably really do not want to do. Glad to hear = you made it down safe and sound. Look for more details on the incident. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: sqpilot@bellsouth.net=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 10:53 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's new rotor housings Good luck Rusty (with both the flying and the Dominator/single = rotor). I did fly today, good news/bad news. Flew without the = thermostat and temps were great. Climbed like a rocketship and temps = never went above 165 until the engine quit. Fuel pump fuse blown, and a = wiring problem. Will address it on another post. Made an uneventful = deadstick landing on the runway, made the first turn-off, but didn't = have enough speed to coast all the way to my hangar....had to push it = the last 200 feet. Paul Conner ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Russell Duffy=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 10:56 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's new rotor housings Paul Conner, flying tomorrow (temps should be around 80 degrees = and sunny in Mobile, AL). Maybe I'll look across the bay and see Rusty = in the air. =20 I'll be there. I'll be the one circling 2R4 and pissing off the = Navy :-) =20 Seriously, I have lots of things to do on the plane, but I think = I've scrapped all that in favor of just flying it tomorrow. My number = one priority right now is getting the Sonerai engine running, and the = airframe cleaned up, so I can sell it. By as early as next weekend, I = should be the owner of that Dominator I sent you pics of. Just add = rotors and a single rotor engine :-) =20 Rusty (and a drain for my garage) ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C54F1C.D3F5FF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Hi, Ed.....Yes, I have two MSD fuel = pumps. They=20 are not on the same circuit, and each one has a 20 amp = fuse.(which=20 will very soon be replaced by a circuit breaker that I can reset = from the=20 cockpit).  Once I was downwind, I turned the right pump off. = Shortly=20 thereafter, the engine quit. I tried different throttle = settings as it=20 was failing, but it was too late. Turned on the other pump, but = the engine=20 had already quit. (yes, it happens very fast)  I then focused on = flying the=20 airplane and making the runway, and postponing the troubleshooting=20 until I was safely on the ground.  (Later on the ground, = found=20 the fuse blown on the left fuel pump).  By turning off the right = fuel pump=20 (which was working), it was unable to continue running with the left = pump that=20 had a blown fuse. Don't know why the fuse was blown yet. I also checked = the=20 gascolator and screen, and found very little sediment. There was, = however a=20 piece of rubber in the bottom of the gascolator that appears to be the = inside of=20 a rubber fuel line, that may have been a product of installing the = reuseable=20 fittings. I understand that sometimes when inserting these fittings, a = "flap" of=20 rubber can obstruct the fuel line. This is what it appears to be.  = We ran=20 the pump on the ground, and only a small amount of fuel came out the = main=20 fuel line that I disconnected from the fuel rail. Upon reassembling = the=20 gascolator and turning on the fuel selector, the gascolator did not fill = with=20 fuel. (gravity fed, all downhill from the fuel tanks).  We blew = into the=20 hose, and then the gascolator filled with fuel. Seems there was some = type of=20 restriction somewhere in the line upstream of the gascolator. I need to = remove=20 all fuel lines and inspect for debris. I also had planned on pumping all = of the=20 fuel out of the fuel tanks using the high pressure fuel pumps....that's = when I=20 realized that they only run a few seconds after turning on the key, then = shut=20 off with no engine rpm input. I don't know if the obstruction caused the = fuel=20 pump fuse to blow or not.
      I now = recall reading=20 in the MicroTech manual that the fuel pumps shut off if it detects no = spark from=20 the coils, so that it would not continue pumping fuel into an engine = that has no=20 spark. This is obviously why the pump only runs for a few seconds when I = first=20 turn on the ignition switch, then quickly stops pumping. We put a = voltmeter to=20 the inline fuse, and found that it had 12.9 volts as soon as the = ignition was=20 turned on, but after a few seconds, the pump stopped and there was no = longer any=20 voltage at the fuse.
    I'm hoping we can = find what=20 caused the slight fuel obstruction in front of the gascolator....if we = can't=20 find the cause, it would be difficult to regain confidence in the fuel = system.=20 Too bad, because the engine was running strong and smooth, and the temps = were=20 great!!!  Paul aka deadstick Conner
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 6:30 = PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's = new rotor=20 housings

Paul,
 
Sorry to hear about the fuel pump - = Did I ever=20 mention I NEVER use fuses for flight critical components - always = circuit=20 breakers.  More fundamental though is I assumed you were flying = with two=20 fuel EFI pumps.  I have two and both are on for take off and = landing,=20 strongly recommend two EFI flue pumps!  Strongly recommend don't = fly with=20 just one operational pump!  OR are you telling us that you have = two=20 pumps, but both pumps were on the same circuit??
 
But, enough, great to hear you are = becoming an=20 accomplished glider pilot - keep doing that and you are going to catch = up with=20 someof the rest of us - which you probably really do not want to = do. =20 Glad to hear you made it down safe and sound. Look for more details on = the=20 incident.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 sqpilot@bellsouth.net =
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 = 10:53=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's = new rotor=20 housings

Good luck Rusty (with both the = flying and the=20 Dominator/single rotor).  I did fly today, good news/bad = news. =20 Flew without the thermostat and temps were great. Climbed like a = rocketship=20 and temps never went above 165 until the engine quit.  Fuel = pump fuse=20 blown, and a wiring problem.  Will address it on another = post. =20 Made an uneventful deadstick landing on the runway, made the first = turn-off,=20 but didn't have enough speed to coast all the way to my = hangar....had to=20 push it the last 200 feet.  Paul Conner
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Russell=20 Duffy
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Saturday, April 30, = 2005 10:56=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Ed's new=20 rotor housings

Paul Conner, flying = tomorrow (temps=20 should be around 80 degrees and sunny in Mobile, AL).  Maybe = I'll=20 look across the bay and see Rusty in the air.   
 
I'll be there.  I'll be the one = circling 2R4 and=20 pissing off the Navy = :-)  
 
Seriously, I have lots of things to do on = the plane,=20 but I think I've scrapped all that in favor of just flying it=20 tomorrow.   My number one priority right now is getting=20 the Sonerai engine running, and the airframe cleaned up, so I = can=20 sell it.  By as early as next weekend, I should be=20 the owner of that Dominator I sent you pics of.  Just = add rotors=20 and a single rotor engine=20 :-)  
 
Rusty (and a drain for my=20 garage)
  
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C54F1C.D3F5FF40--