X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-PolluStop-Diagnostic: (direct reply)\eX-PolluStop-Score: 0.00\eX-PolluStop: Scanned with Niversoft PolluStop 2.1 RC1, http://www.niversoft.com/pollustop Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.101] (HELO ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c4) with ESMTP id 863504 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 09 Apr 2005 20:42:40 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.101; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-185-127.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.185.127]) by ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j3A0fr0W009588 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 20:41:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002c01c53d66$1f78dbe0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: No Joy on Sun & Fun{:<( Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 20:42:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C53D44.9837A060" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C53D44.9837A060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Steve, Dave and all. Yes, that's one of the value of this list, we get to share the ugly as = well as the good, hopefully to preclude someone else meeting the ugly. = I must say that the pucker factor is getting a little less everytime I = find my self with a semi glider - but, it does not got away completely. = I am glad I always climb for altitude first thing after take off, gives = you a bit of time to consider options. Of course, would rather not be = in position to have to consider options {:>). Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to either confirm or exclude the = plenum by peeking in the throttle body opening. With any luck I should = be able to get the engine off and home tomorrow and will tear it down on = Monday. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Staten=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 8:18 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: No Joy on Sun & Fun{:<( Ed,=20 I too am sorry to hear you will not be making SNF.. I had = considered driving there to be able to network with the people who are = actually making the rotaries a reality. Like the others, I am glad you = made it to land safely, and will be looking forward to your after-action = report and post-mortem on the engine to figure out what happened.. That = way we can learn what the failure mode was and hopefully be able to = avoid it. =20 Dave Steve Brooks wrote: Ed, Sorry to hear of your trouble. I'll look forward to hearing about = whatever you find. Something simple I hope. =20 I've been tied up with the house building the last few weeks, but I = hope to make another trip to SC to do some flying in the next week or = so. Steve Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 5:10 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] No Joy on Sun & Fun{:<( Folks, for those of you who I hoped to meet at Sun & Fun this = year, its not going to happen. =20 Story follows: After the sun broke through the early AM clouds, I launched at = 1000 and found myself with a tail wind (unbelievable). I started a 500 = fpm slow climb to stay under Bravo airspace and reached 7000 MSL about = 20 miles or so on top of a overcast (clear on the other side), when the = fun started. The first indication was a difference in the engine sound, then I = noticed the EGT on the rear rotor dropping. #&%^@ spark Plug SAG was my = initial thought - but, I had just put in 4 new B9EQV spark plugs the = previous day. Then as things continued to develop (like EGT went to min = 1200F) I noticed that the EGT (which normally only drops 300F) was at = effectively zero (or bottom of meter at 1200F). Well, as Tracy has = mentioned pulling back on the power generally helps, so I did - no joy. = Tried switching off primary and secondary injectors (alternatively of = course) still no improvement. By this time I had begun a 180 deg turn = (into a now headwind). I tried varying the mixture control - switched fuel tanks in case = I picked up bad fuel in one tank (see I do learn) - fuel pressure was = 43 psi (nominal), oil pressure was 70 psi (nominal), Oil temp was down = to 160F, coolant was also down to 160F ( a bit low). Indicating that = perhaps less power was being produced. The aircraft was now vibrating = with the characteristic one-rotor-running vibration. Altitude was down = to 6500 MSL, but I was making no attempt to hold altitude. Finally can = see ground beneath, home base still 50 miles away. Situation is = continuing to deteriorate, I have increased fuel flow to 14 gph just to = maintain 5000 rpm. A fuel flow of below 12 gph and the engine starts = to unwind as if it is going to stop.=20 Now I noticed that EGT on rotor number one is coming down to = around 1500F. Clearly not Sparkplug SAG. Because of the high fuel flow = I though perhaps I had a fuel problem even though pressure was OK. I = had also switched fuel tanks, just in case on tank was bad. Engine is = clearly losing power progressively. I still had 6000 MSL and was = thinking about getting home, but then decided that going into the = headwind I would have very little glide (ground path) and there were no = airfield down wind of me anywhere within 40 miles. I decided to divert to Lancaster ,SC airport (cross wind) as it = was the closest and had a 6000 ft runway - plus I could see it off my = left wing. On the way, down I thought about turning off the engine to = preserve any remaining engine power in case I needed it to make the = runway. THEN! I remember saying so many time, that despite damage - so = long as a rotary is RUNNING, it will stay running - but, if you turned = it off you would probably never get it started again. I quickly = switched the injectors back on while the prop was still windmilling and = the engine caught and fired back up. Actually had 3000 ft when I = arrived over the airfield, so would probably have made it with the = engine stopped. Landing was uneventfully and I turned off on the taxi = way with the engine still running. I notice that it took almost full = throttle just to make the aircraft taxing up a the small incline to the = terminal. Got parked, uncowled and could find no evidence of anything amiss = - but, clearly I was not going any further in the air this day. Then I grabbed the prop and pulled it through - no evidence of = compression on any of the six rotor faces! It will be a day or two before I can get the engine off and torn = down to determine the cause of the problem but here are my two = candidates in no particular order other than the sequence in which they = occurred to me. THIS IS PRELIMINARY, so stand by for corrections after I open the = engine up. Candidate one (my initial thought) - the new style B9EQV spark = plugs electrodes stuck too far down into the combustion chamber and all = six apex seals got clipped. However, if this were the cause, you would = have though that my several full throttle runup the day before Or early = in my max power climb it would have happened. Why did it wait until = 70-80 miles down the road - took that long for heat expansion to = elongate the plug sufficiently to clip the apex seals? Hard to believe, = but I guess it possible. These are colder plugs so would stay cooler = longer But, I would have expected that if this were the cause, the = effective would have been immediate or very soon after take off.. Candidate two. I installed the plastic plenum several days ago = and have had a number or WOT runs on the ground, but this was the first = flight. Recall, thought, I have flown with plastic plenums for a = number of hours on previous iterations of intake systems (three intakes = to be precise). There is a 3/8" wall of plastic separating the primary = and secondary runners inside this plenum. This wall divides the two = runners from each other . When the TB is wide open the throttle plate = edge is at that divider and parallel to it. To improve airflow I had = sanded that divider at the throttle body to a thinner front edge (a 3/8" = blunt wall would hurt airflow). The thought occurs that perhaps this = had disintegrated and been ingested causing the damage (those powerful = FAW pulses). This would account for the problem not happening = immediately and after the climb to 7000 MSL. I examined the engine and = the exterior surface of the plenum and there was no evidence of cracks, = etc. However, it did not occur to me at the time, while waiting for the = wife to drive 50 minutes to get me, to take off the air flow tube to = examine the internal condition of the plenum, will do that tomorrow.=20 Candidate three??? Any other thoughts before I tear it down and = end the mystery?? Oh, to complete the picture with local color, the local airport = manager suggested that I remove my radios - I asked why? Well it turns = out they had theft of such a week before (just GREAT!). So pulled all = the electronic gear, even took my seat cushions home with me. While = removing the radios - guess who drives up - nope not the wife, yep!, the = county's local detective assigned to the theft case and asks me what I = am doing - well, removing radios, of course. But, all ends well and I = don't get hauled to jail on top of everything else {:>) So again, my disappointment in not getting to see many of you down = there. Fix it up and fly down Tuesday you say? Well, even if there = were no serious damage to housings or rotor (I should be so lucky), the = guy who sell the apex seal I would use - is down in Florida - at Sun & = Fun I do believe {:>). I have already talked with Tracy and told him of my sparkplug = theory, but I now have to give equal (if not more weight) to = disintegrating plenum. But, once again, I am amazed at the damage a = rotary engine will take and continue to produce power. Here both rotors = were damaged -not just one - and yet I could still manage, at its lowest = 3000 rpm) - probably enough power to keep my RV and me airborne in a = long glide to home (but why chance it when things could get worst). = Besides the prospect of having to make a go-a-round if I misjudged the = approach to our narrow 2200 ft runway was not appealing - 6000ft was = better. Well, like I always say anything that wants to break on the ground = if just fine with me. Any thing that wants to break in the air - so = long as it gets me safely back to an airpatch (before dying completely) = - is also just fine with me. =20 My story for the day, now where did I put that bottle of Whiskey? Best Regards Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C53D44.9837A060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Steve, Dave and = all.
 
Yes, that's one of the value of this = list, we get=20 to share the ugly as well as the good, hopefully to preclude someone = else=20 meeting the ugly.  I must say that the pucker factor is getting a = little=20 less everytime I find my self with a semi glider - but, it does not got = away=20 completely.  I am glad I always climb for altitude first thing = after take=20 off, gives you a bit of time to consider options.  Of course, would = rather=20 not be in position to have to consider options {:>).
 
Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to = either confirm=20 or exclude the plenum by peeking in the throttle body opening.  = With any=20 luck I should be able to get the engine off and home tomorrow and will = tear it=20 down on Monday.
 
Ed
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David=20 Staten
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 = 8:18=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: No Joy = on Sun=20 & Fun{:<(

Ed,
   I too am sorry to hear you will = not be=20 making SNF.. I had considered driving there to be able to network with = the=20 people who are actually making the rotaries a reality. Like the = others, I am=20 glad you made it to land safely, and will be looking forward to your=20 after-action report and post-mortem on the engine to figure out what=20 happened.. That way we can learn what the failure mode was and = hopefully be=20 able to avoid it.
 
Dave

Steve Brooks wrote:
Ed,
Sorry to hear of your trouble.  I'll look forward to = hearing=20 about whatever you find.  Something simple I hope. =20
 
I've been tied up with the house building the last few = weeks, but I=20 hope to make another trip to SC to do some flying in the next week = or=20 so.
 
Steve Brooks
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net]On=20 Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 = 5:10=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 No Joy on Sun & Fun{:<(

Folks, for those of you who I = hoped to meet=20 at Sun & Fun this year, its not going to happen.  =
 
Story follows:
 
After the sun broke through the = early AM=20 clouds, I launched at 1000 and found myself with a tail wind=20 (unbelievable).  I started a 500 fpm slow climb to stay under = Bravo=20 airspace and reached 7000 MSL about 20 miles or so on top of a = overcast=20 (clear on the other side), when the fun started.
 
The first indication was a = difference in the=20 engine sound, then I noticed the EGT on the rear rotor = dropping. =20 #&%^@ spark Plug SAG was my initial thought - but, I had just = put in 4=20 new B9EQV spark plugs the previous day.  Then as things = continued to=20 develop (like EGT went to min 1200F) I noticed that the EGT (which = normally only drops 300F) was at effectively zero (or bottom of = meter at=20 1200F).  Well, as Tracy has mentioned pulling back on the = power=20 generally helps, so I did  - no joy.  Tried switching = off=20 primary and secondary injectors (alternatively of course) still no = improvement.  By this time I had begun a 180 deg turn (into a = now=20 headwind).
 
I tried varying the mixture = control  -=20 switched fuel tanks in case I picked up bad fuel in one tank (see = I do=20 learn)  - fuel pressure was 43 psi (nominal), oil pressure = was 70 psi=20 (nominal), Oil temp was down to 160F, coolant was also down to = 160F ( a=20 bit low). Indicating that perhaps less power was being = produced.=20  The aircraft was now vibrating with the characteristic=20 one-rotor-running vibration.   Altitude was down to 6500 = MSL,=20 but I was making no attempt to hold altitude.  Finally can = see ground=20 beneath, home base still 50 miles away.  Situation is = continuing to=20 deteriorate, I have increased fuel flow to 14 gph just to maintain = 5000=20 rpm.  A fuel flow of below 12 gph  and the = engine=20 starts to unwind as if it is going to = stop. 
 
Now I noticed that EGT on rotor = number one is=20 coming down to around 1500F.  Clearly not Sparkplug = SAG. =20 Because of the high fuel flow I though perhaps I had a fuel = problem even=20 though pressure was OK.  I had also switched fuel tanks, just = in case=20 on tank was bad.  Engine is clearly losing power = progressively. =20 I still had 6000 MSL and was thinking about getting home, but then = decided=20 that going into the headwind I would have very little glide = (ground path)=20 and there were no airfield down wind of me anywhere within 40=20 miles.
 
I decided to divert to Lancaster = ,SC airport=20 (cross wind) as it was the closest and had a 6000 ft runway - plus = I could=20 see it off my left wing.  On the way, down I thought about = turning=20 off the engine to preserve any remaining engine power in case I = needed it=20 to make the runway.  THEN! I remember saying so many time, =  that=20 despite damage - so long as a rotary is RUNNING, it will stay = running -=20 but, if you turned it off you would probably never get it started=20 again.  I quickly switched the injectors back on while the = prop was=20 still windmilling and the engine caught and fired back = up.  =20 Actually had 3000 ft when I arrived over the airfield, so would = probably=20 have made it with the engine stopped.  Landing was = uneventfully and I=20 turned off on the taxi way with the engine still running.  I = notice=20 that it took almost full throttle just to make the aircraft taxing = up a=20 the small incline to the terminal.
 
Got parked, uncowled and could = find no=20 evidence of anything amiss - but, clearly I was not going any = further in=20 the air this day.
Then I grabbed the prop and = pulled it through=20 - no evidence of compression on any of the six rotor = faces!
 
It will be a day or two before I = can get the=20 engine off and torn down to determine the cause of the problem but = here=20 are my two candidates in no particular order other than the = sequence in=20 which they occurred to me.
 
THIS IS PRELIMINARY, so stand by = for=20 corrections after I open the engine up.
 
Candidate one (my initial = thought)  -=20 the new style B9EQV spark plugs electrodes stuck too far down into = the=20 combustion chamber and all six apex seals got clipped.  = However, if=20 this were the cause, you would have though that my several = full=20 throttle runup the day before Or early in my max power climb it = would have=20 happened.  Why did it wait until 70-80 miles down the road - = took=20 that long for heat expansion to elongate the plug sufficiently to = clip the=20 apex seals?  Hard to believe, but I guess it possible. These = are=20 colder plugs so would stay cooler longer  But, I would have = expected=20 that if this were the cause, the effective would have been = immediate or=20 very soon after take off..
 
Candidate two.  I installed = the plastic=20 plenum several days ago and have had a number or WOT runs on the = ground,=20 but this was the first flight.  Recall, thought,  I have = flown=20 with plastic plenums for a number of hours on previous iterations = of=20 intake systems (three intakes to be precise).  There is = a 3/8"=20 wall of plastic separating the primary and secondary runners = inside this=20 plenum.  This wall divides the two runners from each other = . =20 When the TB is wide open the throttle plate edge is at that = divider=20 and parallel to it.  To improve airflow I had sanded = that=20 divider at the throttle body to a thinner front edge (a 3/8" = blunt=20 wall would hurt airflow).    The thought occurs = that=20 perhaps this had disintegrated and been ingested causing the = damage (those=20 powerful FAW pulses).  This would account for the problem not = happening immediately and after the climb to 7000 MSL.  I = examined=20 the engine and the exterior surface of the plenum and there was no = evidence of cracks, etc.  However, it did not occur to me at = the=20 time, while waiting for the wife to drive 50 minutes to get me, to = take=20 off the air flow tube to examine the internal condition of = the=20 plenum, will do that tomorrow. 
 
Candidate three???  Any = other thoughts=20 before I tear it down and end the mystery??
 
 
Oh, to complete the picture with = local color,=20  the local airport manager suggested that I remove my radios = - I=20 asked why?  Well it turns out  they had  theft of = such a=20 week before (just GREAT!).  So pulled all the electronic = gear, even=20 took my seat cushions home with me.  While removing the = radios -=20 guess who drives up - nope not the wife, yep!, the county's local=20 detective assigned to the theft case and asks me what I am doing - = well,=20 removing radios, of course.  But, all ends well and I don't = get=20 hauled to jail on top of everything else {:>)
 
So again, my disappointment in = not getting to=20 see many of you down there.  Fix it up and fly down Tuesday = you=20 say?  Well, even if there were no serious damage to housings = or rotor=20 (I should be so lucky), the guy who sell the apex seal I would use = - is down in Florida - at Sun & Fun I do believe=20 {:>).
 
  I have already talked with = Tracy and=20 told him of my sparkplug theory, but I now have to give equal (if = not more=20 weight) to disintegrating plenum. But, once again, I am amazed at = the=20 damage a rotary engine will take and continue to produce = power.  Here=20 both rotors were damaged -not just one - and yet I could = still=20 manage, at its lowest 3000 rpm) - probably enough power to = keep my RV=20 and  me airborne in a long glide to home (but why chance it = when=20 things could get worst).  Besides the prospect of having to = make a=20 go-a-round if I misjudged the approach to our narrow 2200 ft = runway was=20 not appealing - 6000ft was better.
 
Well, like I always say anything = that wants=20 to break on the ground if just fine with me.  Any thing that = wants to=20 break in the air - so long as it gets me safely back to an = airpatch=20 (before dying completely) -  is also just fine with = me. =20
 
My story for the day, now where = did I put=20 that bottle of Whiskey?
 
Best Regards
 
Ed
 
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW = Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
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