X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-PolluStop-Diagnostic: (direct reply)\eX-PolluStop-Score: 0.00\eX-PolluStop: Scanned with Niversoft PolluStop 2.1 RC1, http://www.niversoft.com/pollustop Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.101] (HELO ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c4) with ESMTP id 862612 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:19:03 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.101; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-185-127.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.185.127]) by ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j391IF0W020431 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 21:18:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001301c53ca2$0870b5e0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed Anderson Cooling System Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 21:18:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C53C80.812A9860" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C53C80.812A9860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, with the best of intentions ( you know the saying about those I'm = sure), I keep meaning to. I even had one of Paul's data loggers hooked = up and was ready to start - just waiting on his software. But, then he = decided to add GPS data keeping and one thing led to another to where no = data got collected - I was somewhat reluctant to hook it up after he = informed me his GPS stopped working after he tried some tests {:>) I am not going to destroy the ducts, so I can always slap them back on = by pulling two pins ( takes about 30 seconds once the cowl is off) and = do the measurements. I would be very interested in what's happening = myself. Perhaps I will find my engine is only putting out 120HP {:>). Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: William=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 8:38 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed Anderson Cooling System Hey Ed, before you change ducts, how about making the delta-T = measurements on the water side of the two coolers, and then repeating = with the measurments with each change in duct. I think we can learn = something fromthe data. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser # 4045 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 2:09 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed Anderson Cooling System Hi Doug, No doubt when you have different (higher?) standards they can be = tougher to meet {:>). I agree with you assessment about a "reverse venturi" duct. I = have a larger "capture area" before the one duct necks down to 10 sq = inches and the other to 18 sq inches. My theory was that would increase = the velocity (dynamic pressure potential) to help maintain that higher = dome of pressure in front of the core that my radical curved duct walls = infringe on. My inlet is 6" long on one side and 3" long on the other, = so did not have a lot of room to play duct with. I flew a max power/climb take off two days ago with the ground OAT = was 85F, by the time I hit 3000 MSL the oil temp was up to 210F and the = coolant to 220F (my personal maxs for short duration). I then leveled = off and let the cooling system catch up with heat load. So it does = appear that for mid summer operation a bit more inlet area is called = for. I intend to open up the 10sq inch side (which is on my hottest = radiator - first in the series) to 18 sq inches as well. That will = provide a bit more margin on those hottest days. My personal experience = with the 91 turbo block and the Teflon coat silicon coolant "O" rings = that even coolant temps of 240F for short periods do not appear to have = done any harm - as you say, coolant and combustion chamber are still = separate. But, I am please with the experiment in that I believe for my HP = engine (I estimate 175-180HP) I have found a "lower" limit on duct size. = Although perhaps with "exhaust augmentation" it could be made to work = fine in hotter days - much easier just to open one duct up a bit. I total agree, when approaching trees or a ridge line - who cares = about the temps - can always replace the engine (if necessary) provided = you clear the tree line. It always a personal pleasure to exchange ideas, experiences and = theories with people of the calibrate we have on this list. I always = report my happenings - even when they are a bit embarrassing at times. = I seem to have had an unusually assortment of events happen. I was = awarded the Rotary Round Up "Lightening strikes six times (or more) = award which lists a litany of things from oil pump key drop out, front = tire gauges on both sides by the bolts holding on the wheel pant when I = screwed them in a bit too much and then planted the front tire a bit = hard causing it to balloon out and catch the bolts, flop tube drop off = resulting in a 12 miles engine out glide, etc, etc. =20 But one of the main reasons I share - is life is too short to make = all the mistakes yourself, so my objective is IF you are going to make = mistakes - advance the state of the art and make one I haven't - we = already know how those turned out{:>). Thanks for the comments, Doug. We try our best - and what's great = is when you're wrong, folks will bring it to you attention - in a = pleasant manner. Tomorrow I launch (weather permitting) heading down to join Tracy = Crook and on to Lakeland, Fl for Sun & Fun hope to see a bunch of your = folks down there. Best Regards Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Shearbond@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 11:05 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Ed Anderson Cooling System In a message dated 4/4/05 6:05:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time, = eanderson@carolina.rr.com writes: There were those who claimed that there was no way that would = work. Well, I reduced my inlet area from 48 sq inch to 28 and it works = just fine thank you. Tracy Crook can vouch that I have flown with the = small openings for well over a year and he has never seen steam or smoke = coming from my engine - yet {:>). Hey Ed...that was probably me! All my analysis uses Military Air = outside conditions (+40 deg F over standard conditions), are climbing at = 100 mph TAS (near max rate of climb) and assumes that you are actually = generating 200 HP. At 2,000 ASL and +40 deg F over standard....I = suspect you are not generating 200HP and if you are indeed capable of = 200 HP probably do not maintain that operating condition sufficiently = long (at 100 mph) to reach steady state conditions which my rules of = thumb consider. =20 Hopefully if you ever are approaching the trees on T/O under the = more severe conditions you can tolerate 245+ deg F engine out coolant = temperature. Been there done that with the Mooney. You know what? The = throttle stayed in WOT and no leaves on the belly! It defined "pucker" = for me. So you'll have to forgive me if I size my inlets just a little = bit larger for our 95 deg summer days. (Military Air at sea level is 99 = deg F)...WOT...generating 200 HP for an extended period!! Do what Tracy = "noodles" and spray water on the heat exchangers!! Of course you have = to carry that two gallons of water around for the inevitable situation = :>). Sort of like a "gear up...not if, but when...if one flys enough. Incidentally we unavoidably reached those 245 deg F engine out = temperatures while developing my friends system without "apparent" ill = effects. He does not have sufficient hours to determine if there were = long term effects, but water and oil are still separate! Being a little = experienced with automotive tests I would estimate that short of rapid = temperature "shock" at those temperatues, no damage was done. Note: = one of the OEM Automotive tests of heads/head gaskets is to dump just = above freezing water into the engine inlet side of the waterpump while = running at full tilt!! That is thermal stress! SWAG (valuable engineering tool), I believe you have what is = almost a reverse venturi duct and your "effective" inlet area is = actually larger than 28 sq. in. which is probably your smallest area in = the inlet duct. I have "noodled" (another valuable engineering tool!) = that what you are doing might very effectively compensate for a very = short inlet duct....but probably is a small detriment to cooling drag. = Too small to matter IMO. Hey, you are a terrific experimenter and an invaluable Hummmmmer = flyer who is willing to share even at the risk of us "still building" = asking questions trying to understand what is happening in the Big RW. = It is terrific you share so we can consider what you have done and if we = are smart....will try to implement same in our own builds. I truly appreciate your combination of theory, practical = application and ability to write!! Thanks! Doug in CO ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C53C80.812A9860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill, with the best of intentions ( you know the saying about those = I'm=20 sure), I keep meaning to.  I even had one of Paul's data loggers = hooked up=20 and was ready to start - just waiting on his software.  But, then = he=20 decided to add GPS data keeping and one thing led to another to where no = data=20 got collected - I was somewhat reluctant to hook it up after he informed = me his=20 GPS stopped working after he tried some tests {:>)
 
 I am not going to destroy the ducts, so I can always slap = them back=20 on by pulling two pins ( takes about 30 seconds once the cowl = is=20 off) and do the measurements.  I would be very interested in = what's=20 happening myself.  Perhaps I will find my engine is only putting = out 120HP=20 {:>).
 
Ed A
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 William=20
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 = 8:38=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed = Anderson=20 Cooling System

Hey Ed, before you change ducts, how about making the delta-T=20 measurements on the water side of the two coolers, and then repeating = with the=20 measurments with each change in duct.  I think we can learn = something=20 fromthe data.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 = 2:09=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed = Anderson=20 Cooling System

Hi Doug,
 
No doubt when you have different (higher?) standards they can = be=20 tougher to meet {:>).
 
  I agree with you assessment about a "reverse venturi"=20 duct.  I have a larger "capture area" before the one duct necks = down to=20 10 sq inches and the other to 18 sq inches.  My theory was that = would=20 increase the velocity (dynamic pressure potential) to help maintain = that=20 higher dome of pressure in front of the core that my radical curved = duct=20 walls infringe on.  My inlet is 6" long on one side and 3" long = on the=20 other, so did not have a lot of room to play duct with.
 
I flew a max power/climb take off two days ago with the ground = OAT was=20 85F, by the time I hit 3000 MSL the oil temp was up to 210F and the = coolant=20 to 220F (my personal maxs for short duration).  I then leveled = off and=20 let the cooling system catch up with heat load.  So it does = appear that=20 for mid summer operation a bit more inlet area is called for.  = I intend=20 to open up the 10sq inch side (which is on my hottest radiator - = first in=20 the series) to 18 sq inches as well.  That will provide a bit = more=20 margin on those hottest days.  My personal experience with the = 91 turbo=20 block and the Teflon coat silicon coolant "O" rings that even = coolant temps=20 of 240F for short periods do not appear to have done any harm - as = you say,=20 coolant and combustion chamber are still separate.
 
But, I am please with the experiment in that I believe for my = HP engine=20 (I estimate 175-180HP) I have found a "lower" limit on duct = size. =20 Although perhaps with "exhaust augmentation" it could be made to = work fine=20 in hotter days - much easier just to open one duct up a bit.
 
I total agree, when approaching trees or a ridge line - who = cares about=20 the temps - can always replace the engine (if necessary) provided = you clear=20 the tree line.
 
It always a personal pleasure to exchange ideas, experiences = and=20 theories with people of the calibrate we have on this list.  I = always=20 report my happenings - even when they are a bit embarrassing at = times. =20 I seem to have had an unusually assortment of events happen.  I = was=20 awarded the Rotary Round Up "Lightening strikes six times (or more) = award=20 which lists a litany of things from oil pump key drop out, front = tire gauges=20 on both sides by the bolts holding on the wheel pant when I screwed = them in=20 a bit too much and then planted the front tire a bit hard causing it = to=20 balloon out and catch the bolts, flop tube drop off resulting in a = 12 miles=20 engine out glide, etc, etc. 
 
But one of the main reasons I share -  is life is too = short to=20 make all the mistakes yourself, so my objective is IF you are going = to make=20 mistakes - advance the state of the art and make one I haven't - we = already=20 know how those turned out{:>).
 
Thanks for the comments, Doug.  We try our best - and = what's great=20 is when you're wrong, folks will bring it to you attention - in a = pleasant=20 manner.
 
Tomorrow I launch (weather permitting) heading down to join = Tracy Crook=20 and on to Lakeland, Fl for Sun & Fun hope to see a bunch of your = folks=20 down there.
 
Best Regards
 
Ed
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Shearbond@aol.com
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, April 08, = 2005 11:05=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Ed = Anderson=20 Cooling System

In a message dated 4/4/05 6:05:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time, = eanderson@carolina.rr.com=20 writes:
There were those who claimed = that there was=20 no way that would work.  Well, I reduced my inlet area from = 48 sq=20 inch to 28 and it works just fine thank you.  Tracy Crook = can vouch=20 that I have flown with the small openings for well over a year = and he=20 has never seen steam or smoke coming from my engine - yet=20 {:>).
Hey Ed...that was probably me!  All my analysis uses = Military=20 Air outside conditions (+40 deg F over standard conditions), = are=20 climbing at 100 mph TAS (near max rate of climb) and assumes = that you=20 are actually generating 200 HP.  At 2,000 ASL and +40 deg F = over=20 standard....I suspect you are not generating 200HP and if you = are=20 indeed capable of 200 HP probably do not maintain that operating = condition=20 sufficiently long (at 100 mph) to reach steady state = conditions which=20 my rules of thumb consider. 
 
Hopefully if you ever are approaching the trees on = T/O under the=20 more severe conditions you can tolerate 245+ deg F engine out = coolant=20 temperature.  Been there done that with the Mooney.  You = know=20 what?  The throttle stayed in WOT and no leaves on the = belly! =20 It defined "pucker" for me.  So you'll have to forgive me if = I size=20 my inlets just a little bit larger for our 95 deg summer = days. =20 (Military Air at sea level is 99 deg F)...WOT...generating 200 HP = for an=20 extended period!!  Do what Tracy "noodles" and spray water on = the=20 heat exchangers!!  Of course you have to carry that two = gallons of=20 water around for the inevitable situation :>).  Sort of = like a=20 "gear up...not if, but when...if one flys enough.
 
Incidentally we unavoidably reached those 245 deg F engine = out=20 temperatures while developing my friends system without "apparent" = ill=20 effects.  He does not have sufficient hours to determine if = there=20 were long term effects, but water and oil are still=20 separate!  Being a little experienced with automotive = tests I=20 would estimate that short of rapid temperature "shock" at those=20 temperatues, no damage was done.  Note:  one of the OEM=20 Automotive tests of heads/head gaskets is to dump just above = freezing=20 water into the engine inlet side of the waterpump while running at = full=20 tilt!!  That is thermal stress!
 
SWAG (valuable engineering tool), I believe you have what is = almost a=20 reverse venturi duct and your "effective" inlet area is actually = larger=20 than 28 sq. in. which is probably your smallest area in the inlet=20 duct.  I have "noodled" (another valuable engineering tool!) = that=20 what you are doing might very effectively compensate for a = very short=20 inlet duct....but probably is a small detriment to cooling = drag.  Too=20 small to matter IMO.
 
Hey, you are a terrific experimenter and an invaluable = Hummmmmer=20 flyer who is willing to share even at the risk of us "still = building"=20 asking questions trying to understand what is happening in = the Big=20 RW.  It is terrific you share so we can consider what = you have=20 done and if we are smart....will try to implement same in our own=20 builds.
 
I truly appreciate your combination of theory, practical = application=20 and ability to write!!  Thanks!
 
Doug in=20 CO
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C53C80.812A9860--