X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-PolluStop-Diagnostic: (direct reply)\eX-PolluStop-Score: 0.00\eX-PolluStop: Scanned with Niversoft PolluStop 2.1 RC1, http://www.niversoft.com/pollustop Return-Path: Received: from frontend3.cwpanama.net ([201.225.225.169] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c4) with ESMTP id 862581 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 20:46:48 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=201.225.225.169; envelope-from=rijakits@cwpanama.net Received: from [201.224.93.110] (HELO usuarioq3efog0) by frontend3.cwpanama.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.1) with SMTP id 38132652 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 19:48:01 -0500 Message-ID: <000c01c53c9d$7e4ec270$6e5de0c9@usuarioq3efog0> From: "rijakits" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed Anderson Cooling System Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:45:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53C73.95254340" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53C73.95254340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ed, and when you already go for the delta-T data, why not go for the exhaust augmetation as well! You are just getting bored if you cannot do some new exhaust system soon anyway! :)) You are perfectly right, when you say new intake ducts are easier, faster and cheaper to build, BUT do you really fancy increasing your drag? Instead you could build a complete new exhaust system, keep your low cooling profile, lower drag even more and keep us all amazed wit the results!! Thomas J. (...wish I was there to play with all this fun stuff already!!) ----- Original Message ----- From: William To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 7:38 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed Anderson Cooling System Hey Ed, before you change ducts, how about making the delta-T measurements on the water side of the two coolers, and then repeating with the measurments with each change in duct. I think we can learn something fromthe data. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser # 4045 ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 2:09 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed Anderson Cooling System Hi Doug, No doubt when you have different (higher?) standards they can be tougher to meet {:>). I agree with you assessment about a "reverse venturi" duct. I have a larger "capture area" before the one duct necks down to 10 sq inches and the other to 18 sq inches. My theory was that would increase the velocity (dynamic pressure potential) to help maintain that higher dome of pressure in front of the core that my radical curved duct walls infringe on. My inlet is 6" long on one side and 3" long on the other, so did not have a lot of room to play duct with. I flew a max power/climb take off two days ago with the ground OAT was 85F, by the time I hit 3000 MSL the oil temp was up to 210F and the coolant to 220F (my personal maxs for short duration). I then leveled off and let the cooling system catch up with heat load. So it does appear that for mid summer operation a bit more inlet area is called for. I intend to open up the 10sq inch side (which is on my hottest radiator - first in the series) to 18 sq inches as well. That will provide a bit more margin on those hottest days. My personal experience with the 91 turbo block and the Teflon coat silicon coolant "O" rings that even coolant temps of 240F for short periods do not appear to have done any harm - as you say, coolant and combustion chamber are still separate. But, I am please with the experiment in that I believe for my HP engine (I estimate 175-180HP) I have found a "lower" limit on duct size. Although perhaps with "exhaust augmentation" it could be made to work fine in hotter days - much easier just to open one duct up a bit. I total agree, when approaching trees or a ridge line - who cares about the temps - can always replace the engine (if necessary) provided you clear the tree line. It always a personal pleasure to exchange ideas, experiences and theories with people of the calibrate we have on this list. I always report my happenings - even when they are a bit embarrassing at times. I seem to have had an unusually assortment of events happen. I was awarded the Rotary Round Up "Lightening strikes six times (or more) award which lists a litany of things from oil pump key drop out, front tire gauges on both sides by the bolts holding on the wheel pant when I screwed them in a bit too much and then planted the front tire a bit hard causing it to balloon out and catch the bolts, flop tube drop off resulting in a 12 miles engine out glide, etc, etc. But one of the main reasons I share - is life is too short to make all the mistakes yourself, so my objective is IF you are going to make mistakes - advance the state of the art and make one I haven't - we already know how those turned out{:>). Thanks for the comments, Doug. We try our best - and what's great is when you're wrong, folks will bring it to you attention - in a pleasant manner. Tomorrow I launch (weather permitting) heading down to join Tracy Crook and on to Lakeland, Fl for Sun & Fun hope to see a bunch of your folks down there. Best Regards Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Shearbond@aol.com To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 11:05 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Ed Anderson Cooling System In a message dated 4/4/05 6:05:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time, eanderson@carolina.rr.com writes: There were those who claimed that there was no way that would work. Well, I reduced my inlet area from 48 sq inch to 28 and it works just fine thank you. Tracy Crook can vouch that I have flown with the small openings for well over a year and he has never seen steam or smoke coming from my engine - yet {:>). Hey Ed...that was probably me! All my analysis uses Military Air outside conditions (+40 deg F over standard conditions), are climbing at 100 mph TAS (near max rate of climb) and assumes that you are actually generating 200 HP. At 2,000 ASL and +40 deg F over standard....I suspect you are not generating 200HP and if you are indeed capable of 200 HP probably do not maintain that operating condition sufficiently long (at 100 mph) to reach steady state conditions which my rules of thumb consider. Hopefully if you ever are approaching the trees on T/O under the more severe conditions you can tolerate 245+ deg F engine out coolant temperature. Been there done that with the Mooney. You know what? The throttle stayed in WOT and no leaves on the belly! It defined "pucker" for me. So you'll have to forgive me if I size my inlets just a little bit larger for our 95 deg summer days. (Military Air at sea level is 99 deg F)...WOT...generating 200 HP for an extended period!! Do what Tracy "noodles" and spray water on the heat exchangers!! Of course you have to carry that two gallons of water around for the inevitable situation :>). Sort of like a "gear up...not if, but when...if one flys enough. Incidentally we unavoidably reached those 245 deg F engine out temperatures while developing my friends system without "apparent" ill effects. He does not have sufficient hours to determine if there were long term effects, but water and oil are still separate! Being a little experienced with automotive tests I would estimate that short of rapid temperature "shock" at those temperatues, no damage was done. Note: one of the OEM Automotive tests of heads/head gaskets is to dump just above freezing water into the engine inlet side of the waterpump while running at full tilt!! That is thermal stress! SWAG (valuable engineering tool), I believe you have what is almost a reverse venturi duct and your "effective" inlet area is actually larger than 28 sq. in. which is probably your smallest area in the inlet duct. I have "noodled" (another valuable engineering tool!) that what you are doing might very effectively compensate for a very short inlet duct....but probably is a small detriment to cooling drag. Too small to matter IMO. Hey, you are a terrific experimenter and an invaluable Hummmmmer flyer who is willing to share even at the risk of us "still building" asking questions trying to understand what is happening in the Big RW. It is terrific you share so we can consider what you have done and if we are smart....will try to implement same in our own builds. I truly appreciate your combination of theory, practical application and ability to write!! Thanks! Doug in CO ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53C73.95254340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ed,
 
and when you already go for the delta-T data, why = not go for=20 the exhaust augmetation as well! You are just getting bored if you = cannot do=20 some new exhaust system soon anyway! :))
You are perfectly right, when you say new intake = ducts are=20 easier, faster and cheaper to build, BUT do you really fancy increasing = your=20 drag?
Instead you could build a complete new exhaust = system, keep=20 your low cooling profile, lower drag even more and keep us all amazed = wit the=20 results!!
 
Thomas J. (...wish I was there to play with all this = fun stuff=20 already!!)
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 William=20
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 = 7:38=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed = Anderson=20 Cooling System

Hey Ed, before you change ducts, how about making the delta-T=20 measurements on the water side of the two coolers, and then repeating = with the=20 measurments with each change in duct.  I think we can learn = something=20 fromthe data.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 = 2:09=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed = Anderson=20 Cooling System

Hi Doug,
 
No doubt when you have different (higher?) standards they can = be=20 tougher to meet {:>).
 
  I agree with you assessment about a "reverse venturi"=20 duct.  I have a larger "capture area" before the one duct necks = down to=20 10 sq inches and the other to 18 sq inches.  My theory was that = would=20 increase the velocity (dynamic pressure potential) to help maintain = that=20 higher dome of pressure in front of the core that my radical curved = duct=20 walls infringe on.  My inlet is 6" long on one side and 3" long = on the=20 other, so did not have a lot of room to play duct with.
 
I flew a max power/climb take off two days ago with the ground = OAT was=20 85F, by the time I hit 3000 MSL the oil temp was up to 210F and the = coolant=20 to 220F (my personal maxs for short duration).  I then leveled = off and=20 let the cooling system catch up with heat load.  So it does = appear that=20 for mid summer operation a bit more inlet area is called for.  = I intend=20 to open up the 10sq inch side (which is on my hottest radiator - = first in=20 the series) to 18 sq inches as well.  That will provide a bit = more=20 margin on those hottest days.  My personal experience with the = 91 turbo=20 block and the Teflon coat silicon coolant "O" rings that even = coolant temps=20 of 240F for short periods do not appear to have done any harm - as = you say,=20 coolant and combustion chamber are still separate.
 
But, I am please with the experiment in that I believe for my = HP engine=20 (I estimate 175-180HP) I have found a "lower" limit on duct = size. =20 Although perhaps with "exhaust augmentation" it could be made to = work fine=20 in hotter days - much easier just to open one duct up a bit.
 
I total agree, when approaching trees or a ridge line - who = cares about=20 the temps - can always replace the engine (if necessary) provided = you clear=20 the tree line.
 
It always a personal pleasure to exchange ideas, experiences = and=20 theories with people of the calibrate we have on this list.  I = always=20 report my happenings - even when they are a bit embarrassing at = times. =20 I seem to have had an unusually assortment of events happen.  I = was=20 awarded the Rotary Round Up "Lightening strikes six times (or more) = award=20 which lists a litany of things from oil pump key drop out, front = tire gauges=20 on both sides by the bolts holding on the wheel pant when I screwed = them in=20 a bit too much and then planted the front tire a bit hard causing it = to=20 balloon out and catch the bolts, flop tube drop off resulting in a = 12 miles=20 engine out glide, etc, etc. 
 
But one of the main reasons I share -  is life is too = short to=20 make all the mistakes yourself, so my objective is IF you are going = to make=20 mistakes - advance the state of the art and make one I haven't - we = already=20 know how those turned out{:>).
 
Thanks for the comments, Doug.  We try our best - and = what's great=20 is when you're wrong, folks will bring it to you attention - in a = pleasant=20 manner.
 
Tomorrow I launch (weather permitting) heading down to join = Tracy Crook=20 and on to Lakeland, Fl for Sun & Fun hope to see a bunch of your = folks=20 down there.
 
Best Regards
 
Ed
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Shearbond@aol.com
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, April 08, = 2005 11:05=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Ed = Anderson=20 Cooling System

In a message dated 4/4/05 6:05:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time, = eanderson@carolina.rr.com=20 writes:
There were those who claimed = that there was=20 no way that would work.  Well, I reduced my inlet area from = 48 sq=20 inch to 28 and it works just fine thank you.  Tracy Crook = can vouch=20 that I have flown with the small openings for well over a year = and he=20 has never seen steam or smoke coming from my engine - yet=20 {:>).
Hey Ed...that was probably me!  All my analysis uses = Military=20 Air outside conditions (+40 deg F over standard conditions), = are=20 climbing at 100 mph TAS (near max rate of climb) and assumes = that you=20 are actually generating 200 HP.  At 2,000 ASL and +40 deg F = over=20 standard....I suspect you are not generating 200HP and if you = are=20 indeed capable of 200 HP probably do not maintain that operating = condition=20 sufficiently long (at 100 mph) to reach steady state = conditions which=20 my rules of thumb consider. 
 
Hopefully if you ever are approaching the trees on = T/O under the=20 more severe conditions you can tolerate 245+ deg F engine out = coolant=20 temperature.  Been there done that with the Mooney.  You = know=20 what?  The throttle stayed in WOT and no leaves on the = belly! =20 It defined "pucker" for me.  So you'll have to forgive me if = I size=20 my inlets just a little bit larger for our 95 deg summer = days. =20 (Military Air at sea level is 99 deg F)...WOT...generating 200 HP = for an=20 extended period!!  Do what Tracy "noodles" and spray water on = the=20 heat exchangers!!  Of course you have to carry that two = gallons of=20 water around for the inevitable situation :>).  Sort of = like a=20 "gear up...not if, but when...if one flys enough.
 
Incidentally we unavoidably reached those 245 deg F engine = out=20 temperatures while developing my friends system without "apparent" = ill=20 effects.  He does not have sufficient hours to determine if = there=20 were long term effects, but water and oil are still=20 separate!  Being a little experienced with automotive = tests I=20 would estimate that short of rapid temperature "shock" at those=20 temperatues, no damage was done.  Note:  one of the OEM=20 Automotive tests of heads/head gaskets is to dump just above = freezing=20 water into the engine inlet side of the waterpump while running at = full=20 tilt!!  That is thermal stress!
 
SWAG (valuable engineering tool), I believe you have what is = almost a=20 reverse venturi duct and your "effective" inlet area is actually = larger=20 than 28 sq. in. which is probably your smallest area in the inlet=20 duct.  I have "noodled" (another valuable engineering tool!) = that=20 what you are doing might very effectively compensate for a = very short=20 inlet duct....but probably is a small detriment to cooling = drag.  Too=20 small to matter IMO.
 
Hey, you are a terrific experimenter and an invaluable = Hummmmmer=20 flyer who is willing to share even at the risk of us "still = building"=20 asking questions trying to understand what is happening in = the Big=20 RW.  It is terrific you share so we can consider what = you have=20 done and if we are smart....will try to implement same in our own=20 builds.
 
I truly appreciate your combination of theory, practical = application=20 and ability to write!!  Thanks!
 
Doug in=20 CO
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53C73.95254340--